Night and Day in the Key of C - What is the function of the F#-7b5

[JonR]

Hi guys. Those of you immersed in the theoretical ramifications of this tune (rather than the practical improv demos) might like to check this thread out:

Night and Day - analysis?

- a couple of heavyweight profs in there. (I did want them you'd be coming...)

[jster]

JonR, I'm loving watching this Night and Day thing for all kinds of reasons. Very instructive in all kinds of ways. One of which is to see the edge of music theory where the disagreements break out and what the disagreements look like. But I am going to repeat one of the points I made in my last comment. Evidently Cole Porter did not write either the Dmin7b5 or the Dmin7 at the end of the four chord run down. Both seem to be Abmaj7. Won't that affect the analysis of the diminshed chord at least and thereby effect how we think of the whole tune? And unless we expect this exercise to fully demonstrate analysis in general (which from my seat in the peanut gallery looks unlikely), shouldn't we at least stick to what Porter actually wrote? Isn't it a bit like analyzing a novel using a movie script derived from it?

And in that thread, what do they mean by "cto" and "CPP"?

[Reg]

Hey Jon... the only thing I read that said much was'''

" To reiterate, CPP is not the only functional music possible. Just because a sequence of chords does not neatly fit into the tidy boxes of 18th and 19th century European compositional practice doesn't make them beyond analysis from a functional perspective, and at some point in the very near future we'll need to start calling CPP ECPP (European Common Practice Period) and the music of Porter and others ACPP. In ACPP there is just as much coherency and functionality -- the music of the great American composers is not just random nonsense."

Nothing new as far as analysis... hey maybe ears will start to actually hear in color... rather than just white... Reg
oops that was Black and White...

[JonR]

JonR, I'm loving watching this Night and Day thing for all kinds of reasons. Very instructive in all kinds of ways. One of which is to see the edge of music theory where the disagreements break out and what the disagreements look like. But I am going to repeat one of the points I made in my last comment. Evidently Cole Porter did not write either the Dmin7b5 or the Dmin7 at the end of the four chord run down. Both seem to be Abmaj7.

You sure about that? I know the original opens with Abmaj7, but Abmaj7 after the Ebdim7 won't harmonise the melody too well (A-Ab-G). And neither will Dm7b5.
And with Abmaj7, of course, you lose the descending bass.
If I was going to use Abmaj7 in bars 1 and 5, I would still use Dm7 in bar 13.

And unless we expect this exercise to fully demonstrate analysis in general (which from my seat in the peanut gallery looks unlikely), shouldn't we at least stick to what Porter actually wrote? Isn't it a bit like analyzing a novel using a movie script derived from it?

I fully agree (personally). But I don't have a copy of CP's original to hand. I mean, I know about the opening Abmaj7, but what's your reference for the later one? A recording?

And in that thread, what do they mean by "cto" and "CPP"?

I suspect "cto" is "common tone diminished" - the "o" being the dim symbol.
CPP = "Common Practice Period".

[jster]

@JonR,

Thanks. I got carried away thinking that the m2 bass drop was the key to everything: while you would lose the descending bass from the diminished chord, you would gain (retain) it going into the V chord. But I listened again and you are right.

[ragman1]

Well, this is fun...

I walked into a charity shop today and saw a book of Cole Porter songs - a proper book, mind you, with proper sheet music of about twenty of his songs. Not one of those Easy To Play books or anything. Kosher stuff!

The chords for 'Night and Day' verses were:

Cm - G7 - C - %
Cm - G7 - C - %
Am - Ab - Em7 - D7
F - G7 - C - (D7/G7)

I tried it. Doesn't sound too bad

[cajazz]

Ahh I see what you mean. It's a bit hard to be clear and explain everything in a forum post.

#IV or raised four is a function containg the #IVdim, #IVm7(b5), bIIIdim and sometimes also bVIdom7 chords. (I think I gave a few examples of songs in the post I linked)

In the same way IVm is a function, I guess you'd call it , subdominant minor?, containing IVm, bVIIdom7, bVImaj7, bIImaj7.

I think that came from the people writing the chords in the charts disregarding the bass. If you look at the piano arrangement it is has an F# (or rather an A since it is in Eb) in the bass. Somehow they always did it like that with the songbooks I have no idea why.

I don't think you are very likely to have a modulation in a standard without a real cadence, ie. a V-I. Look at All the things you are, I remember you or Have you met miss jones. They have modulations but they are all with cadences.



Thanks! This progression is actually used quite often as an intro and as an outro. I use it like that with singers to establish the tonality so to me (and the vocalists I play with) it is not ambigous at all. How you hear it I cannot say of course. But maybe try and play this before Days of wine and roses:
Bm7(b5) Bbm6 Am7 Abdim Gm7 C7. If you want to make it really clear you sub the C7 for a Gbmaj7 and keep F in the melody all the way.

Jens

I received some encouragement from a poster to do this. Are we still talking about the N&D F#mi7(b5)? Sorry for the pedantic stance of this and it's a bit long... but there might be something there.

As far as chord/scales go these formulas etc. can be restrictive, but if they are thought of as flexible, they can provide a point of departure. I could hazard a guess as to the derivation of F#mi7(b5) [#IVmi7(b5)]. The secondary V7/V7 in this case D7 could be a point of departure for F#mi7(b5) taken from the 3rd of D7 as the root (F#). The scale which best conserves the original key of C major for a D7 would be D Mixolydian and translating that to F#mi7(b5), which is often a voicing for D9—where 9 (E) replaces the root (D), is F# Locrian. For a richer color on D7 [F#mi7(b5)], D13#11 uses D Lydian b7 as found in Ellington’s “Take The A Train” (3rd and 4th bars). In F#mi9(b5) this translates to Locrian natural 9.

The source scale for both the D13+11 and F#mi9(b5) is ‘A’ melodic minor. As to the function of #ivmi7(b5), is it an inversion of D7 a secondary dominant? What function category can it be from? Is it a tonic area? Tonic major areas have been defined as I major, iiimi7 (deceptively), vim7 (deceptively) or any inversions of those chords. Tonic Minor areas are usually based from the relative minor key, which in the case of C major is Ami. The minor chord could be Ami7 (Aeolian?), which doesn’t help the cause for an Ami tonic area related to F#mi7(b5). But, an inversion of Ami6 = F#mi7(b5) which could be found in either F# Locrian (sourced in G major) or, with an available 9th as F#mi9(b5) using F# locrian natural 9 sourced in A melodic minor. So the justification for calling F#mi7(b5) a tonic area could be valid.

As far as root motion goes, it’s as if the ‘C’ chord is substituted by a tri-tone rooted chord: F#. There are tunes that can be played with the chords Cmaj7 Dmi7 Emi7 (A7) Dmi7 G7 roughly speaking which are commonly substituted with Cmaj7 Fmaj 7 (or F7) Emi7 A7 Dmi7 G7 ..C…etc. ‘My Romance?’ ‘I Thought About You?’ and if the melody allows, the ‘I’ chord (C) can be substituted with the bV.

If there is an argument about F#mi7(b5) being derived from the augmented 6th chords for example Ab7/Gb and a related Dim7 chord: F#Dim7 (or any inversion), I’ve noted that augmented 6ths generally precede the tonic chord/V(bass), not the ivmi7 as it does here. The F#Dim7 chord which is related to the Ab7/Gb chord sounds strikingly different than F#mi7(b5) does in the context of this song, remembering that a Diminished 7th chord will sound with a Major 7th in it as well as the Diminished 7th but, would exclude the ‘b7’: ‘E’ natural to be used as a passing tone only. In this song the ‘E’ note (the 7th of F#mi7[b5]) is held as a melody note.

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[JensL]

If you read the thread you can probably see that, unlike you, I choose to analyze chords not based on the scale that you play over them but by looking at the context they are in. This is a classical or functional approach which to some seem weird because it is aimed at understanding chord movement rather than deducing chord scales. However because of the harmonic language in standards I think it is a very strong tool in making sense of that kind of harmony. F.ex it saves me all the trouble of having to derive F#m7b5 Fm7 from other chords or keys, they are both well defined in the C major.

I know that a lot of people don't want to go any deeper than "what do I have to play on this chord" and that is fine too. How I see the chords and how I approach playing on them + a list of possible scales are already in the thread so feel free to check it out if you are curious.

Jens

[cajazz]

Thanks for the answer JensL. I confess I did decorate the chord with scales in my first paragraph but do Not derive the function of the chord from the scales I was suggesting. In the second paragraph I wrote about Conserving the key of C which should relay the idea that I have the key and its' harmonic function/context in mind. I totally agree with harmonic context and harmonic function as an initial solution and how they perform in a given key. I thought the only chord I was trying to talk about was the F#mi7(b5). I thought I was discussing one chord only in this thread in the context of the N&D song. As to what function it performs it is in C major in this song. So if you don't mind I will post the rest of the ideas and run that by you.

Heres the post I wrote for the entire song.


Night and Day: response to ‘gennation’ via an Ed Byrne thread on Night and Day

The form is largely ‘AAB’ with each section as 16 bars totaling 48 bars which is a little unusual. It makes it a little easier if those 16 bar sections are divided into two 8-bar phrases i.e. || A8 B8 ||A8 B8 || C8 (‘the bridge’) finishing with B8 ||.

Most recordings transcribed by gennation use the Abma7 as the first chord. Abma7 appears as a Subdominant Minor function (SDM) in C (bVIMa7) which can act as a predominant to G7 in section A8. Subdominant minor chords will act as a predominant but are often used to travel directly to a tonic area. The flatted 6th of the key provides this impetus to resolve. The major tonic is a ‘I’ major chord (Ima7 or I6).

It might be cool to have A8 section imitate the harmonic rhythm of C8 by leaving out the G7 almost altogether. The melody crosses the Abma7 a bit but perhaps is justified by the upcoming C chord and how the melody is played rhythmically. So the C8 part is imitated in the A8 section as || Ab | Ab | C | C ||. It wouldn’t be for the first time that melody notes seemingly out of the chord of the moment are resolved one beat later by the upcoming chord. It would reflect the harmonic rhythm of the bridge (C8 B8). A mirror image if only slightly ‘askew’ from each other i.e. in the ‘A8’ section, the major chord (Ab) travels up a major 3rd to C major and in the C8 section the Ebmaj7 chord travels down a minor 3rd to C major.


I’m trying to figure out why Dmi11(b5) doesn’t seem to work as well as Abmaj7 in the Subdominant Minor realm and why, as you say, it doesn’t sound quite right. I think maybe it’s because Dmi11(b5) is relatively vague as compared to the Abmaj7 in this context or it may even come across as a Bb9/D chord. The major triad structure of Abmaj7 is more sustainable over almost a period of a couple of bars seeing that the overtone series supports that. It is also significant that so many recorded tracks of this song use the original Abma7, the composer’s choice.

B8 follows a descending chromatic line cliché like the bV ending cliché as in #IVmi7(b5)— ivm7—iiim7—biiiDim (viiDim/ii?)—iimi7—V7 ||.

I could hazard a guess as to the derivation of F#mi7(b5) [#IVmi7(b5)]. The secondary V7/V7 in this case D7 could be a point of departure for F#mi7(b5) taken from the 3rd of D7 as the root (F#). is F# For a richer color on D7 [F#mi7(b5)], D13#11 uses D Lydian b7 as found in Ellington’s “Take The A Train” (3rd and 4th bars). In F#mi7(b5) would also have a 9th.

As to the function of #ivmi7(b5), is it an inversion of D7, a secondary dominant? What function category can it be from? Is it a tonic area? Tonic major areas have been defined as I major, iiimi7 (deceptively), vim7 (deceptively) or any inversions of those chords. Tonic Minor areas are usually based from the relative minor key, which in the case of C major is Ami. The minor chord could be Ami7 which doesn’t help the cause for an Ami tonic area related to F#mi7(b5). But, an inversion of Ami6 = F#mi7(b5) or F#mi9(b5) sourced in A melodic minor. So the justification for calling F#mi7(b5) a tonic area could be valid.


If there a case for F#mi7(b5) being derived from the augmented 6th chords for example Ab7/Gb and a related Dim7 chord: F#Dim7 (or any inversion), I’ve noted that augmented 6ths generally precede the tonic chord/V(bass), not the ivmi7 as it does here. The F#Dim7 chord which is related to the Ab7/Gb chord sounds strikingly different than F#mi7(b5) does in the context of this song;

Fmi7 (ivm7) the next chord, supports the melody of the song and is the most obvious chord to use in this voice-led context (whereas F7 would strongly sound like a sub V of the next chord Emi—again, chord voicing in context might enable this to work though). Essentially Fmi7 would be an associated Subdominant minor chord in C. Fmi7 is associated with C major as iimi7/Eb major. Eb major in terms of C major can be described as the relative major (Eb) of the parallel minor (C minor). Eb major is the relative major of C minor therefore, C major can be said to relate to Eb major in this way. Without scale-chord relation, chord extensions are not specified either. In any case a the choice of extensions should come from harmonic context and function. All scale-chord choices reflect the context of the piece. Not the other way around

The next chord is Emi7. Fmi7—Emi7 is a simple chromatic step but in this case if one can assume that Emi7 is a tonic area (somewhat deceptively but very common) then the function of Fmi7 to Emi7 could be called Subdominant Minor traveling to a ‘Tonic’ area which mimics the Sub V/Emi and is in common practise. Emi7 is iiimi7 and is therefore closely aligned to Cma7 so in fact, it could also read as a Cma7 or Cma9/E. Since the intent is to conserve the key of C, The notes of the C scale are the priority not necessarily restricted to only these notes but it does give us a few tone tendency areas to work with.

The chord that is popularly known as viiDim7/ii i.e. D#Dim7—Emi7 i.e. B7(b9)/D#) travels to Emi. But, in this case the EbDim chord (biiiDim7) is not traveling to Emi but is traveling via voice leading to the iimi7 chord Dmi7. This fact invokes a review of diminished 7th chord functional possibilities.

Diminished functions

1) Dominant: (viiDim/ii)*as described above.

2) Auxiliary: (I—IDim7—I) It’s the same thing as ‘parallel’ diminished that I’ve seen in these forum threads. Also from: V7 —VDim7—V7 and, as an approach chord #IVDim7—Ima7/V

3) Passing: (iiimi7—biiiDim7—iimi7) which is found in the N&D progression

In one of the posts you mention something about biiiDim7: “but the Eb passing diminished could be thought of as an incomplete and inverted A7, which would make it part of a secondary cadence.”

I was thinking about this and Ed Byrne is right, it is a doable and valid way to think of the passing diminished. In C, EbDim7 has the Eb which is the tri-tone root of A7. The notes of this chord can be thought of as extensions to A7 (13#9#11) and in fact it resembles the C blues scale and so it’s a fit that way too.

I have thought of biiiDim as being a passing Diminished 7th as in iiimi7—biiiDim7—iimi7. I’d be interested to know what you have to say about that. It looks to me like its about voice leading the Eb and Gb notes fall to D and F notes respectively. It’s almost as if biiiDim7 is construed as being a D7b9 chord so it’s virtually a change of chord quality on the same root as in D7b9((/Eb))

So then, we arrive and Dmi7 —G7 and the B8 section is over.

Making the case for the (‘bV’) #IV cliché as originally used in B8.

The original progression before any reharminzation was #IVmi7(b5)—IVmi7—iiimi7—biiiDim7—Dmi7—G7—C. Although the root motion and the motion of each third is chromatic, each chord quality is not the same but is varied in a definite particular way so even though the root and 3rd motion is chromatic step by step, the 5th (and the 7th) of each chord, will not necessarily move chromatically step by step.

Starting with F#mi7(b5), the 5th is C, in the next chord Fmi7, the fifth is again C by the next chord Emi7 the 5th moves down a ½ step to a B note. In the next chord EbDim7, the 5th is a diminished 5th Bbb or enharmonically 'A', so the motion there is that of a whole step. The next chord is Dmi7 and there again the 5th is an 'A' note but now being a perfect 5th above the root in this chord. The 7th of each of these chords, occur in a similar but not exactly the same, way as the 5th. The underlying strength of this progression is the chromatic motion of the roots and the 3rds. The variety and interest are provided by the changes in color of each chord that is provided by the changing qualities of the 5th and the 7th of each of these chords—not to mention potential chord extensions.

The “Bridge” section I find can be hazardous when playing chorus after chorus of 48 bars. I have to really pay attention to the form of this piece (as in any tune). Part of the problem is that C8 virtually plays in the same tonal areas that A8 is played in, namely Eb major —C major. The Abma7 [or Dmi7(b5)] found in A8 is a different chord than Ebma7 found in C8, but it is arguably in the same general key area and, in the same number of bars of the form i.e. Ebma7 for two bars followed by two bars of Cma7 in C8. The chords generated in A8 are essentially from C natural minor, which is truly sourced in the relative major Eb major and in that way follow a similar routine as C8 I think.

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[AmundLauritzen]

Gee... If we all were to... break up our sentences like this... nobody would take us seriously... because it's like... we doubt our own points...

Not trying to be a jerk or anything, but I have trouble reading posts when people write like that.

[cajazz]

Ok AmundLauritzen, I take it you liked the piece but hate the writing. I appreciate that and will take steps streamline my post later on today. Thanks for the quick response, it is helpful. Originally the post was too big and I had to cut out about a quarter of it. That may have contributed to the problem.

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[AmundLauritzen]

It wasn't directed towards you... but towards a few people... who write like this...

Just wanted to point out that when you read posts that overuse that effect, it's like it conveys a lethargic effect. Like someone talking to you who is almost out of breath and who has to take long pauses between short sentences.
Then again maybe I'm the only one who's annoyed by it.

[cajazz]

Thanks AmundLauritzen but your point is well taken. I will try to make it read without lethargy inducing asides in the future.

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[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Gee... If we all were to... break up our sentences like this... nobody would take us seriously... because it's like... we doubt our own points...

Not trying to be a jerk or anything, but I have trouble reading posts when people write like that.

I don't doubt the sincerity or the expertise of folks ... who write ... like this, but it is hard to read.

There was this one forum member who wrote in all lower case and with no punctuation -- his posts were one run-on stream of consciousness sentence, no matter how long. When I pointed out how punctuation would help, he was insulted and left!

[JakeAcci]

heyone of athe best agutiarists iknow aroudn here in boston sends emails and txts likethis kidna

[cajazz]

Thanks guys, sorry for the lethargic long winded, sub texting, wheezing outline, on N&D. My eyes are opened.

Here is a ‘getting-to-the-point’ short hand version. It hopefully won’t include things nobody needs.

Night and Day in C major.

Form:
1) 48 bars divided into three 16 bars sections (a little unusual)
2) each 16 bars divided into 2 x 8 – as in A(8) B(8) repeated, C(8) B(8)

The A(8) section:

1) first chord: Abma7 (1st bar)
a. functions as Subdominant minor,
b. comes from the parallel minor C minor,
c. predominant to the dominant chord G7’

2) second chord: G7 (2nd bar)
a. V7/C,
b. has a b9 an Ab note which holds over from the 1st chord.

3) third chord: C (3rd and 4th bars)
a. Tonic chord C major

4) the above is repeated.

The B(8) section: each chord is assigned one bar.

1) #ivmi7(b5) F#mi7(b5):
a. the first chord in a bV ‘ending’ cliché (#iv iv iii biiiDim ii V I)
b. comes from viimi7(b5) of G major, a closely related key
c. in this context, often regarded as ii/iii
d. as a ii/iii it functions as a predominant, namely Subdominant minor of iii
e. it is an inversion of Ami6 (and vice versa) a relative minor of the C major tonic.

2) ivmi7 Fmi7:
a. mimics a subV (F7—Emi7)
b. acts as Subdominant minor of C, thereby relating to C and not as much to Emi per se.

3) iiimi7 Emi7:
a. is a tonic area in C major,
b. it is closely related to C major,
c. in context it could be labeled a temporary or deceptive tonic area,

4) biii Diminished 7 EbDim7:
a. is a ‘passing’ diminished function,
b. it passes to iimi7 (Dmi7),
c. it’s as if the Ebdim7 is a (rootless) D7(b9) traveling to Dmi7, the same chord but with a different quality,
d. EbDim7 traveling to Dmi7, in a closed voiced root position, the top 2 notes stay the same, the bottom 2 fall a half step to complete the Dmi7 chord,
e. IF it was travelling TO iiimi7 Emi7, EbDim would be a dominant, or leading tone function or vii/ii. In this progression it’s reversed.
f. biiiDim7 as an inverted A7 the dominant of Dmi7 can work well too but with a C blues sound mixed in with it.
g. as an inverted A7 chord, EbDim7 features the extensions of A7 on the ground floor, kind of mimicking a subV of Dmi7.

5) iimi7 Dmi7 — V7 G7 —I
a. a standard ii—V—I progression:
i. iimi7, subdominant function
ii. V7, Dominant
iii. I, the tonic

The bridge: C8

1) bIIImaj7 for 2 bars
a. related to C via its parallel minor, C minor,
b. Eb is the related major of C minor,
c. the parallel minor of C major, C minor, is the source for both Abmaj7 (in A8) and Ebmaj7 (in C8)
d. there is a harmonic connection between A8 and C8, that of Eb major or Cminor.


2) Imaj7 for 2 bars: Tonic major
3) This 2 chord progression is repeated

The last 8 bars B8: has been outlined above.

OK that’s it. There’s a lot more one could say about extensions, and notes that surround the chord tones, and their tendencies and so on.

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[Reg]

Hey...cajazz, I dig you posts and analysis... very functional. When you play the tune do you actually only play the very simple changes... reflective of your analysis... and call everything else harmonic ornamentation, variants...
or maybe vagrant harmonies. Sorry... I always get a smile when I think of vagrant harmonies. Or does the analysis get tossed out the window after the 1st chorus... reference only.

Yea... I'm probable that person.... who uses the dot collections. There's always something to complain about.

So what would your analysis sound like. Could you post a playing example of analysis. I have no difficulty hearing the basic changes and implications as spelled out by analysis, but maybe some can't. I'm more interested in where this analysis goes, how you would improvise in relation to. That is the point of the analysis, isn't it. To decide on function and tonal system to help guide your playing head, comping and improve...
Thanks... I understand you might not have the time, it is a lot of work, maybe someone else would be so kind as to do so... Reg

[cajazz]

Response to Reg. The Jazz Guitar Forum.

Thanks for the feedback. Much appreciated. I don’t mind discussing it at all. I’m not so techno that I can video things right now but If you want to hear/see some examples, look up my website. I have some sound bytes and videos. You’ll find me at the piano.

I like your ideas of ‘harmonic ornamentation’ and “Vagrant” harmonies which want to always go back to their home base chord. I think the analysis of a tune remains as a point of departure and becomes part of the form as you know it better and better.

Night and Day cont.

Looking at the first chord in C major: Abmaj7, it’s an exciting context, it’s a tune that wants to start on the V7 but no.... it’s this suspended feeling that you can exploit in a solo.

I try sometimes to emphasize this by playing a motive (2 notes?) from Ab and Eb which really spells out the chord and the nature of it’s intent (it can hold the listener ‘prisoner’ for that period of time). So it badly wants to give in to the pull of the next chord G7 (its’ those ½ steps there). Resolve each of those notes down a half step in either chord and it will ‘grind’ and propel quite a lot of feeling and interest.

The G7 chord with the involvement of Abmaj7 invites that ‘Spanish Phrygian’ sound (G Phrygian with an added major 3rd.) Those 2 notes Ab and Eb still have the highest tension in a G7 so ornamentation adds linear excitement but also the basic rhythm element which is at the root of Music in general.

Cmaj7 the tonic chord could be melodically inflected with this same tension and release ideas.

Going back to the Abmaj7 I like to explore those tensions mentioned but would probably exploit another part of the chord say: the #11—5 or 9—1 and keep it going over the G7 chord again. Basically any starting point in the Abmaj7 chord (Lydian mode?) will lead you to some interesting action. the G7 extensions might include a 13 with b9. I notice I’m not feeling compelled to play a #11 of the V7 (G7) or it’s tri-tone Db13(#11) when going to C. I’m going to have to play with that and find out why.

I don’t mind drawing upon scale tone triads of AbLyd or even G7 Harmonic (major) Dominant to get an idea that can be replicated, adapted, extended or some sort of vortex of repetition sped up, slowed down, fragments of motif etc. It is nice if it can be elegantly done. Sometimes you have to wait for ‘quality’.

Just to cap off this discussion temporarily, I’d like to repeat the Spanish Phrygian idea. Over G7 and Abmaj7 it’s basically this well known Spanish theme: G Ab Bb Ab G which can be arpeggiated over both Abma7 and G7 for this effect.

The ‘Spanish’ progression: Over Abmaj7 the G chord is like a lower neighbor chord and sounds like an AbDimMa7 chord. The Ab and Bb triads over Abmaj7 are cool with each other in Ab Lydian or bVI Lydian. If you don’t like the name ‘Lydian’ let’s just call it Bb/Abmaj7 and you have it.

There’s lots of room for other points of departure over the Abma7 chord. Cmi/Abmaj7, Ddim/Abma7, Eb, Fmi, Gmi /// all over Abmaj7 can be a point of departure and the starting point for relevant melodies that will be tonal, express the Abmaj7 chord in context going to G7 and on to C.

I’ll try to get to B8 F#mi7(b5) —Fmi7 etc.. sometime next week.

One final word on CST. I’ve never heard of it !! — as a theory or being separated from context.

They say that a little information can be a dangerous thing. One has to look at the bottom of a song. Context and tension and release flow as the song progresses.

Whether you call it Lydian or II/Imaj7 what’s the difference? I think the hang up is that harmonic function is not learned and get’s substituted with this scale/mode learning in the rush to get notes in the air.

It all needs due deliberation and consideration with a focus on structure—then things will flow. The problem with depending on scales is that one tends not to listen or to ‘pre-hear’ a musical thought.

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[oldane]

On Night and Day in the Key of C, what is the function of the F#-7b5

We may be able to find an answer to that question. But then, what we are doing is asking:"What law/rule does this apply to?" Sometimes in music composers/musicians deliberetely break laws/rules - which actually can make the music more exciting. You kind of wake up and say "Hey, hey, what was that?". It may not follow any rule, but it may sound good anyway - maybe even because of the broken rule. "If it sounds right, it is right." (Duke Elllington).

[cajazz]

Your point is well taken oldane in that it is great to know what rule you're breaking to make something that sounds good/better/ and new. When this happens more than once, I try to grab it and understand what's behind the discovery and to learn how to take it from there.

[JakeAcci]

Mr. Austin I checked out your website. Fantastic playing, glad to have you contributing here.

[cajazz]

Thanks for the kind words JakeAcci. It's nice to be involved in such an interactive forum. Best wishes to you. Oh yeah call me Charlie or cajazz if you will. This is a lot of fun and of course an opportunity to learn and hear what others think and to contribute as well.

[oldane]

I choose to analyze chords not based on the scale that you play over them but by looking at the context they are in. This is a classical or functional approach which to some seem weird because it is aimed at understanding chord movement rather than deducing chord scales. However because of the harmonic language in standards I think it is a very strong tool in making sense of that kind of harmony.

+1

I'd even go further and say that if you don't approach those "All American Song Boook" standards with functional harmony, you are missing the very point of those songs. They are NOT modal music. They are all about horizontal movement - harmonies that begin somewhere go through somewhere to end somewhere. For my part, I often like to play standards "clean" with shell chords without extensions. That way one can get a beautiful voice leading which underlines the logic and beauty of the harmonic progression. A good voice leading can be a stronger asset in functional harmony than spizy extensions - which may often obscure the logical harmonic flow of the tune. And a modal approach ("what scale do I play over this chord") can chop that flow to pieces. Recently I heard Duke Ellingtons "Warm Valley" played modally. It didn't make sense to me, and I was very bored by the effort.

But of course that's only me. I'm a 60 years old fart, firmly rooted in swing and bebop

[bruciekins]

Me too.

[cajazz]

Harmonic context, voiceleading, improvising melodies can spring from just those 2 things. Scale/chord thinking which is kind of a no-brainer approach to that topic, may have some function but it is usually after the fact of using voicing leading and harmonic movement context to achieve the most right sounding improvised melody which will always have a direction implied by the harmonic context and harmonies themselves. Scale/chord application may tend to "double park" or restrict the choices that otherwise would have been more freely made by going with harmonic context progression action. I think even the most diehard scale/chord improvisers in truth, do discard or partially discard that stuff and just get down to hearing and playing their solos (or prehearing them) from the harmonic flow.