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It's not problematic, it's just a rundown based on the cycle of fifths with added tritone subs:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
F# - B - E - A - D - G - C
F is tritone of B and Eb is tritone of A:
F# - F - E - Eb - D - G - C
All he's done is use different kinds of chord like they do in chord melody playing:
F#m7b5 - Fm7 - Em7 - Ebo - Dm7 - G7alt - CM7
See?Last edited by ragman1; 04-06-2012 at 10:00 PM.
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04-06-2012 09:54 PM
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You cannot call everything with a chromatically descending bassline a row of tritone subs. Tritone subs are dominants and sometimes you'll see them also used as a complete II V but this is not an example of that. Originally Posted by ragman1
Jens
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I'm not 'just calling it', I'm explaining how that progression originated. But if you don't agree that's fine Originally Posted by JensL
You can apply it to any tune. Try 'Happy Birthday' (in 3/4):
G - D7 - % - G
G7 - C - G/D7 - G
If we start backcycling from the second line we put in something beginning with B, then E, then A, then D, then G. Try this:
G - D7 - % - G
Bm7b5 - Eo - Am7/D7 - G
It sounds even better if you tritone the Eo and make it a Bbo:
G - D7 - % - G
Bm7b5 - Bbo - Am7/D7 - G
Tritone the D7 and it's even jazzier:
G - D7 - % - G
Bm7b5 - Bbo - Am7/Ab7#9 - G6add9
(Ab7#9 - 46x577
G6add9 - 35x455)
It's so nice you could play it on your next birthday
Last edited by ragman1; 04-07-2012 at 08:58 AM.
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Bb dim is not the tritone of E dim it is an inversion....
Reducing all chord progressions to V I resolutions is not explaining anything.
That row of chords consists of very common harmonical functions that all have a name and it is not the tritone of this or that.
#IVm7b5 IVm III bIIIdim II V I
#IVm7b5 is often used as a form of subdominant chord preceding IVm. Probably to have the root move instead of having first IV and the IVm.
Lover, Just one of those things (in the bridge) have this f.ex.
IVm is a common way to go from subdominant back to the tonic. Try to sing a country ballad about a broken car or something on this progression:
|C C7 |F Fm |C
Or listen to "It could happen to you"...
bIII dim is in fact also a #IVdim in inversion. This chord is also often used to
go from IV back to I (like last line of St Thomas, Straight No Chaser (Bb7 Bdim F7), Rhythm changes etc). It is also often used to lead to the II, as it is in this case, like it is used in Embraceable You, The Song is You.
Another way you see this function used is as a suspension for the I chord,
like in Got You Under my Skin, Spring is here etc.
I, II, III and V I take it I don't need to explain.
Sorry for the long rant, but I really feel that reducing everything to dominants and V-I is leaving out most of the interesting colours in tonal harmony. All standards are tonal and the chords in this progression are all very common, it is no science fiction or magic substition trickery...
Jens
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But it didn't. Eb may be a tritone away from A, but Ebdim is not a sub for A7; it's a crucial half-step away from the dim7 that would be a sub (Edim7, or rather C#dim7 to be strictly correct). Originally Posted by ragman1
"Tritone subs" - like Jens says - only work with dom7s; one dom7 replacing another. And that's because they share their inner tritone (between 3rd and 7th) not because of the root difference, which is incidental.
The Night and Day sequence is intriguing (IMO) precisely because it's not a series of tritone subs. The bass descends chromatically, as does the melody (up to the 4th chord anyway, where it becomes a 4-note chromatic descent on one chord), while the other voices vary: they don't all descend chromatically because that would be dull and too obvious.
As I said above, you can kind of replace the Fm7 with B7 (as a V between the "ii" of F#m7b5 and the "i" of Em7), but only because it harmonizes the melody. It's not a tritone sub, because the original chord is not F7; it puts a different functional slant on it. (It's a subtle point, of course.
)
It may well be that Cole Porter's first choice was B7 (he was a sucker for ii-V-i's anyway), but it's significant that he decided to use Fm7 and not F7 when replacing it. And even more so that he chose Ebdim7 between Em7 and Dm7, which is quite an unusual choice: very different from A7.
I'd guess his decision was based on (a) his melody (D-C#-C-B, "where you are, I...") and the chromatic bassline he already had under way; meaning he wanted an Eb bass note. He may have experimented with many different chords, because there is no obvious choice there.
Should the D and (C) be chord tones? That suggests maybe an Ebmaj7.
Or is the D more like a suspension (because it's the same as the melody note in the previous bar)? That suggests A7; but with a b5 in the bass.
Both those chords contain a G, and maybe he thought he wanted to pursue the chromaticism (between G and F) with a Gb. But a full Ebm chord would be too much, given the previous Fm-Em and the following Dm.
Ebdim7 then emerges as a kind of happy compromise; and with a usefully ambiguous air as well.
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JonR
It's the roots that matter, not what kind of chord it is.
Tritone only means 3 tones. I agree the subs are usually dominants but there's no rule says they have to be.Last edited by ragman1; 04-07-2012 at 08:45 AM.
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Sorry, I disagree. Chord function is what matters. Originally Posted by ragman1
Tritone substitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
tritone root difference, yes, but "dominant function" (and that's down to the 3rd and 7th).
Dim7s can have a dominant function, but not in this case.
A7 and Ebdim7 have different dominant functions. Ebdim7 has no dominant function relative to Dm.
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Of course it's an inversion but that's not the point. E/Bb are a tritone away and the whole descending sequence is based on the cycle. Originally Posted by JensL
Bb dim is not the tritone of E dim it is an inversion....
As far as I'm concerned music is for fun and entertainment, it's not chemistry. There's no point in complicating everything and getting brain damage.
Anyway we'd have to ask Cole Porter what he did and he's not around. I doubt completely he practised some kind of PhD theory, he just wrote a fairly simple progression based on established principles.
It's a pointless argument.
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You're missing the point - see 'Happy Birthday'. Originally Posted by JonR
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Here's another good rule: When choosing a scale to play over a chord, take a scale where the chord is diatonic to the scale. Originally Posted by ragman1
Jens
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I think the D9 D7 makes sense. 2 to 4 or 2 to 4 min is a common progression. The f# is just an inversion. Sometimes a simple explanation works. No one really knows what the composers thought process was. Originally Posted by ragman1
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If we believe an analysis idea or concept to be true then what musical response does that bring forward.
What other associations are suggested or implied? To me that is more interesting than which idea is right or wrong.
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In that case you'd have no outside sounds. Originally Posted by JensL
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Me too. Originally Posted by bako
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Of course you do. You just change the chord, or take a more exotic scale where the original chord is diatonic. Originally Posted by ragman1
I was in fact referring to the fact that you choose to play C mel min on F#m7b5 and Fm7.
Neither chord is diatonic to that scale, and the melody notes are not in there either.
How often does it make sense to take a scale with only the major 3rd and play it over a minor chord?
You insist on trying to explain all tonal harmony by splitting everything up in dominants and tonic chords and transforming it with tritone substitution. That is at the very least completely ignoring anything that has to do with the subdominant. What you come up with when you analyze the song demonstrates that it does not work. If you disagree then try to solo over it as a ballad with the same scale choices.
I honestly think it's fine if it is good enough for you and satisfies what you think you need to play jazz. I just don't like when you try to pass it of as knowledge in a thread about music theory.
Jens
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There are always... a few choices... anyone with any skills at the numbers games can theoretically and musically break it down and back it up.
Just because one is not aware of... can not understand or hear an analysis... doesn't mean its wrong...
Obviously some sound better than others... great players can make almost anything sound right.
Almost any of the analysis... or attempts at analysis...I've read from many of you... could work. Some would need to be set up...
Most of the time when you play tunes... you make choices to where the melody and changes come from. Sometimes you lead and if you have EARS... sometimes you follow.
Night and Day is a very simple tune...
Some theory notes...
Tritone subs... Generally yes swap or invert the tritone etc... but the concept is also applied to root motion and with all types of chords...
Every Dim 7th chord has 4 possible Dom. structures... two tritones and their enharmonic spelling... example...
Ebdim7... subs; D7b9, F7b9, Ab7b9, B7b9
If you don't get it... take the Ebdim7....Notes, Eb, Gb, A, C...Spell as needed. Add a root below each chord tone... D, F, Ab and B... there are you dom. subs. Not very theoretical method of achieving, but results are the same.
And of course... you can, and almost always do... use more than one or two harmonic concepts simultaneously... unless your really trying to sound very vanilla... extremely straight... like turn the volume down, lets get out of here...
As bako brought up... the associations or relationships do become much more useful than the starting point. At some point you do get rid of your training wheels. Reg
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The point was originally about Night and Day - although that seems a long time ago.... Originally Posted by ragman1
The question I was addressing was the Ebdim7 between Em7 and Dm7.
Although you can replace it with A7 (which kind of works OK), it's not a functional substitute; nor is it a tritone substitute in the true sense.
It might seem like splitting hairs, but this isn't about what one can and can't do: it's about how we define terms, so we don't talk at cross purposes.
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Associative thinking
Idea #1--- F#m7b5 is a D9 a II7 chord
Therefore I can approach it via V of II, II V of II or the tritone sub counterparts.
Idea #2---F#m7b5 is a IV chord variant
Therefore I can approach it via V of IV (C7) or II V of IV (Gm7 C7). I can also use Fma7 as a passing chord to Em7.
Idea #3---Back cycling sequence
Therefore I can approach F#m7b5 by back cycling further. Possible root motion Ab G / D G / D C# / G# C# /
Each concept establishes different relationships and logic that can generate additional harmonic/melodic resources.
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Except the melody note is Eb Originally Posted by bako
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Er, assuming we're still talking about Night & Day, that is...
Not following you there. Originally Posted by bako
It's definitely an interesting possibility, but there might be issues (again) with the melody.
As a half-diminished chord, F#m7b5 doesn't have a natural dominant, but a C#-root chord might well work before it. Given the E melody note (in the pickup to the F#m7b5 bar) C#m7 is the obvious choice, but C#dim7 or C#m7b5 would also fit.
Indeed - all good thoughts, but I do think it's important to keep the melody in mind. Without the melody there is no song, and this is just any chord progression then, with no limits. Originally Posted by bako
As we mentioned, btw, idea #4 (if you like) - F#m7b5 is a ii chord in E minor - next chord but one; so it can be followed by B7 (which fits the Eb/D# melody note).
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Jon,
"Except the melody note is Eb . Er, assuming we're still talking about Night & Day, that is..."
Night and Day is the song in question.
FMa7 is intended as a passing chord perhaps on the 4th beat of the F#m7b5 measure harmonizing an E note.
All the approach chords to F#m7b5 can be voiced with an E note, used as a b9 in Eb7 being the most challenging.
"Not following you there. It's definitely an interesting possibility, but there might be issues (again) with the melody."
"As a half-diminished chord, F#m7b5 doesn't have a natural dominant, but a C#-root chord might well work before it.
Given the E melody note (in the pickup to the F#m7b5 bar) C#m7 is the obvious choice, but C#dim7 or C#m7b5 would also fit."
E in relation to the different roots mentioned
C#---E is m3 or #9
Ab----E is #5
D----E is the 9th
G----E is the 13th
Harmonizing the melody is not a problem if voiced well.
"Indeed - all good thoughts, but I do think it's important to keep the melody in mind.
Without the melody there is no song, and this is just any chord progression then, with no limits."
I do also think it can be valid to generate ideas from the progression but this is not my intention for this post.
I had the melody in mind at all times, sorry if that was not clear.
"As we mentioned, btw, idea #4 (if you like) - F#m7b5 is a ii chord in E minor - next chord but one;
so it can be followed by B7 (which fits the Eb/D# melody note)."
Exactly my point, as a II of E minor once again new relationships come to the fore.
Each perspective can lead to different realizations.
What constitutes good music......that's a work in progress.
Best,
BakoLast edited by bako; 04-09-2012 at 02:42 PM.
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So maybe this is completely off topic but still...
Why is the point of all analysis to give you scales?
Is it not important to understand the movement of the harmony? (so that you realize that f.ex Am in C is sometimes the II of D7 and sometimes a temporary tonal center and that the two are very different chords)
The way I've been taught theory and ear-training we've used classical harmony (essentially splitting things up into categories and sub categories of Tonic/Dominant/Subdominant functions)
F.ex:
| C C7 | F Fm | C
| C C7 | F Bb7 | C
| C C7 | F Abmaj7 | C
sounds pretty much the same, because the harmony goes C-Bb-A-Ab-G
and is an example of I IV - IVm I movement. Even if it has different chords on the IVm spot.
Categorizing and understanding the movement of the chords makes it a lot easier to memorize and play changes because it helps you:
1. Imagine how the progression sounds
2. Help you order and name the different smaller progressions that make up a song.
3. Let's you understand what notes to put where in the context of a few chords instead of only looking at the notes of one chord and.
4. Opens up the possibilities in you choices since it is often easy to exchange a chord from the a category of chords with another, or change the sub category of chords to get a different sound under the same melody.
So when I am analyzing songs I am looking at the harmony and how it moves rather than just naming the chord and assigning a scale to it.
In the end you can play whatever you want on whatever you want. I do that myself, that is not the point. The point is to understand how the chords move.
Standards were all written by people who did not swing and where for the most part active before bop was invented but most of them where classically trained composers and knew how harmony works, so maybe it could be an advantage to know something about that too?
Sorry for the long post...
Jens
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So here's a video of me playing a few choruses on the song.
Bear with me that my guitar tech did not tune my 3rd string too well and my camera man is not so good with a phone...
Jens
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Nice! Originally Posted by JensL
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Ah, OK - didn't realise you were breaking it down that much! Originally Posted by bako
(All the rest understood)
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I think Jens has the right idea... if we're going to BS about analysis... we need to be able to play what we're talking about... back up what your preaching... that doesn't mean you need to play it well... but if you can't make it sound like what your analysis reflects, well you might not know what your talking about....
So lets start a "Night and Day" analysis with playing examples thread.
Or just keep this one going...
Jens example was great start... very straight ahead, could hear the changes or harmonic movement. So to make videos more useful and accurate... we should verbally explain what we're playing as we play... I think it's cool to actually stop between phrases or what ever works for each of you ...
If nothing else it will help all of us to be able to hear what analysis really is... where it can go and where it can come from... learn to hear the BS. I'm also very sure it we'll help many of you... to begin to understand Jazz Harmony and what notated charts actually mean.
Hey Jens...I enjoyed your playing, thanks. And what's up with the new look... you going underground. Look like clip from artisan philosophical
B&W yada yada... cool... Reg
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