How to Find the Relative Minor of a Key

[richard vandyne]

hi everyone -I am having a problem(minor) figuering out how to find the relative minor of any key. the book i am studying tells me that the fifth of any key is the relativer minor ie if the key were in Db the relative minor would be the fifth of that chord or Ab. etc. When i checked the circle of fifths i am told that the relative minor is Bb. who is right and is there a formula i can use that fits all keys?? i may not reading this all right so i need some guidance.

[cosmic gumbo]

Relative minor is built on the 6th degree of the major scale from which it is derived. C major - A minor.

[richard vandyne]

mr cosmic gumbo -thank you for your help. I want to tell you what my book says. " now that you know that if you have a dominant 7th chord you can substitute it,s relative minor which is the fifth of the chord". does that make sense??

[M-ster]

mr cosmic gumbo -thank you for your help. I want to tell you what my book says. " now that you know that if you have a dominant 7th chord you can substitute it,s relative minor which is the fifth of the chord". does that make sense??

You started by talking about relative minor with respect to key. Cosmic gave you the correct answer to that question.

Now you're providing a statement about chord substitution, wherein this author advises that you can substitute Dm7, for example, in place of G7 (i.e., a minor 7th chord built of the 5th of the dominant 7).

So far, so good?

[richard vandyne]

hi- thanks for the clarification. i haven,t been too clear because i am not sure about what i am reading. so- to clear up matters a bit- to get a relative minor for a key you would use the 6th note of the key signature as the relative minor and when substituting for a chord you would use the 5th of the chord only it would be in a minor mode. Is that all correct????

[JonR]

hi- thanks for the clarification. i haven,t been too clear because i am not sure about what i am reading. so- to clear up matters a bit- to get a relative minor for a key you would use the 6th note of the key signature as the relative minor and when substituting for a chord you would use the 5th of the chord only it would be in a minor mode. Is that all correct????

More or less.

The idea of relative minor is to do with key or scale, not chords. The key of C major has a relative minor key (or scale), which is A minor.
"Relative" means a scale which shares the same set of notes; it just has a different keynote or "tonic".
Modes can also be relative, eg D dorian is "relative to" G mixolydian. (That may be what the book is getting at.) But if the chords are in the key of C major, then modal distinctions are irrelevant.

And to underline: the concept of "relative minor" refers only to major (ionian) and natural minor (aeolian). Ie, even though G mixolydian is a major mode and D dorian is a minor one, it's wrong to say Dm7 is a "relative minor" of G7.

Chord substitution is quite different. It's within one key context, and means replacing one chord with another that has the same (or similar) "function". "Modes" are not relevant.

I also disagree with the book that Dm7 makes a good substitute for G7 (if that's really what it's saying). In key of C major, G7 is dominant function and Dm7 is subdominant.
I suspect what he's getting at is you can think "Dm7" while playing over a G7 chord. IOW, you can start phrases from the 5th of the chord, as a way of breaking out of thinking "G" all the time. The scale is the same in each case (C major); modal thinking is beside the point.
(I mean, you might be thinking "D dorian" when playing over a G7 chord, to get you out of a rut, but if there's a G bass the sound is still "G mixolydian", or rather "V in C major". Ie, you might be getting a different, fresher sound, escaping from your G-root rut, but the mode sound is the same.)

It is very common in jazz to replace a G7 chord with Dm7-G7 (ie halving the length of each chord); but the G7 stays there in the last half of the space where it was. IOW, one bar of G7 can become 2 beats each of Dm7-G7. Or two beats of G7 can become one beat each of Dm7-G7.
The one essential difference between the chords is the C in Dm7 and the B in G7; the chords can be considered interchangeable apart from those notes.

IOW, G7sus4-G7 or Dm7-Dm6 could replace Dm7-G7 (or plain G7).

Occasionally the C could remain on the G7 (making it G7sus4, or Dm7/G, all the way), but this depends on context. Its certainly not a rule that will work as well anywhere.

[whatswisdom]

...I am having a problem (minor)figuering out how to find the relative minor of any key.

How about 2 birds w/ 1 stone?: If you learn your modes, which come from the Major Scale, all you have to remember is that Aeolian is the relative minor.

Ionian
Dorian
Phrygian
Lydian
Mixolydian
Aeolian (relative minor)
Locrian

First step is to make sure you are fluent in Major Scales (all keys).

[richard vandyne]

thanks for the lesson-it,s pretty much beyond me but i get the idea.i will never know how you keep all that in your heads! how i got onto this is because i am given a lesson in transposing a 6 bar lie into 12 different keys,. in order to keep from boring people it is mentioned as to how you can take 7th chords and give them a different flavor by transposing them to a different chord and still have it match with the parent key. i am getting most of the transposing done without too much problem except where i want to substitute for the 7th chords. any easy answers???? here is another thing i dont quite understand. i am on old timer with music so i remember that when a composer wanted a different flavor in his song all he did was just change keys and there you have it. when he wanted to get back to his original music all he did was change back.. what is the purpose of all this modal stuff????

[bako]

II to I---can expand to II V I
V to I---can expand to II V I
II V I---can simplify to V I
II V I---can simplify to II I

II is thought of as sub dominant

Also, as extensions Dm7 = G9sus (5b7911)

G7sus to C
Dm7 to C

Both get the job done, bringing it back home to I. Context and taste as always matter.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Relative minor is the relationship that gets the name.
On another level every chord from a scale has both an upper and lower common tone relationships

Am7-CMa7-Em7
Bm7b5-Dm7-FMa7
CMa7-Em7-G7
Dm7-FMa7-Am7
Em7-G7-Bm7b5
FMa7-Am7-CMa7
G7-Bm7b5-Dm7

The lower neighbor chord both shares 3 common tones including the root.
This is what makes Am7 more structurally similar to CMa7 than Em7
The upper neighbor chord is a 3 5 7 9 extension

The inclusion or lack of a tritone influences how some of these can be used as surrogates for each other.
Em7 is 13 1 3 5 of G7 contains the root but without an F note being played by someone is incomplete as a dominant sound.
Bm7b5 is 3 5 b7 9 lacks the root contains the tritone and is effective as a dominant.

[richard vandyne]

thanks for the help. in your reply you suggest being fluent in all keys. great advise and thats what iam working on now and trying to transpose into different keys. i still need a lot of work on all the scales but that will take some time. i do have a question though. i have taken all the keys and figured all the modal extentions of each key. i understand how that is done but my question is this. if a composer want you to change and play say from g-mixolydian and play the next 8 bars as g- aeolian why isn,t it more understandable to just write from key g to key Bb for eight bars and back to g. seems to me to be more understandable and easier.

[richard vandyne]

that helps- thanks. let me tell you what my instructions are and maybe you can give me a beter explanation. " you may notice that most of the time when we have a seventh chord,we substitute minor chords in their place. if a chord is G7 i may use a Dmi7,Dmi6,or Dm7 to g13 or something like that. the fifth of any dominant chord can be substituted in place of the dominant itself.let,s say you have 2 bars of D7. alright the fifth of D is A . all you have to do is count up with your fingers D E F G the A. A minor is a very close relative of D7 . Now you know that anytime a dominant chord you can substitute its relative minor which is the 5th of the chord." Thats how i got into all this. All correct????????

[Reg]

II to I---can expand to II V I
V to I---can expand to II V I
II V I---can simplify to V I
II V I---can simplify to II I

II is thought of as sub dominant

Also, as extensions Dm7 = G9sus (5b7911)

G7sus to C
Dm7 to C

Both get the job done, bringing it back home to I. Context and taste as always matter.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Relative minor is the relationship that gets the name.
On another level every chord from a scale has both an upper and lower common tone relationships

Am7-CMa7-Em7
Bm7b5-Dm7-FMa7
CMa7-Em7-G7
Dm7-FMa7-Am7
Em7-G7-Bm7b5
FMa7-Am7-CMa7
G7-Bm7b5-Dm7

The lower neighbor chord both shares 3 common tones including the root.
This is what makes Am7 more structurally similar to CMa7 than Em7
The upper neighbor chord is a 3 5 7 9 extension

The inclusion or lack of a tritone influences how some of these can be used as surrogates for each other.
Em7 is 13 1 3 5 of G7 contains the root but without an F note being played by someone is incomplete as a dominant sound.
Bm7b5 is 3 5 b7 9 lacks the root contains the tritone and is effective as a dominant.

Hey bako... great info. as always...
Your neighbor chord concept... is fairly close to basic Function Subs... Tonic , sub-dominant and dominant... I thing when we're using basic traditional harmony... the tritone trumps the common tones or number organizational concept... If we were using modal concepts... where the tritone is almost avoided or used carefully as to not imply Ionian... the numbers work pretty well as organizational concept.

Relative minor or parallel minor, ( or maj.) are the basic starting points of modal interchange. ( looking through the key hole)

And the II chord may or may not have V chord, many times simply implied... one of the main sources for harmonic and melodic, compositional, improvisational and basic comping technique used in jazz... subs, sub of subs, sub of implied subs etc... all from either the II or the V of basic II V... the original jazz Chord Pattern... at least most used.
Reg

[richard vandyne]

hey reg and bako. i ve read your replys and have a further question. if a chord has the capacity for extension,c maj 7 to E mi7 because it has a similarity, ins,t it possible the to say that you can keep extendind the extention indefinately . and if so ,everything is really related to everything. how do you stop this or is it just possabilities for someone who can concieve and hear the harmony.

[whatswisdom]

i still need a lot of work on all the scales but that will take some time.

Richard - That's the best use of your time & focus at this juncture. Reg & bako's more advanced explanations will be clearer then.

if a composer want you to change and play say from g-mixolydian and play the next 8 bars as g- aeolian why isn,t it more understandable to just write from key g to key Bb for eight bars and back to g.

The composer could. Then you would have a modulation. Key signatures: C Major > Bb Major > C Major.

[bako]

Common extension are a variation of 1 3 5 7 9 11 13, 7 notes, a reordering of a given scale.

C D E F G A B C becomes C E G B D F A---1 3 5 7 9 11 13
D E F A C E G B becomes D F A C E G B---1 b3 5 b7 9 11 13
E F G A B C D E becomes E G B D F A C---1 b3 5 b7 b9 11 b13
F G A B C D E F becomes F A C E G B D---1 3 5 7 9 #11 13
G A B C D E F G becomes G B D F A C E---1 3 5 b7 9 11 13
A B C D E F G A becomes A C E G B D F---1 b3 5 b7 9 11 b13
B C D E F G A B becomes B D F A C E G ---1 b3 b5 b7 b9 11 b13

These are all harmonic aspects of a C Major scale. There is a unique interval sequence centered on each tone of the scale.

To take this list and address the 3 other 7 note scales

melodic minor- change E to Eb
harmonic minor- change E to Eb and A to Ab
harmonic major- change A to Ab

Within the idea of full extension, the whole scale is the chord.

Practically and musically speaking notes are omitted.
Some notes create clashes with the basic root triad of that degree.
In some situations this is a problem but in a modal environment the tension is just part of the color.

One way to work on the basic scale and the harmonic aspects at the same time is to play the scale against a drone. Play single notes, 2 notes, chords, in any combination and listen to the effect it produces.

C scale against the following drone notes C / D / E / F / G / A / B

This is a derivative approach.

One other way is to always keep the C drone and against it play the following Major scales

C / Bb / Ab / G / F / Eb / Db

3 minutes on each of the 7 modes using alternatively the derivative and parallel approach for 2-4 weeks should begin to solidify the sound of a harmonic area centered on each degree.

[richard vandyne]

Bako- didn,t mean to put you thru all that work!!!!! i want you to know that i really appreciate it and will put it to good use. Thank you very much and i need to digest all this info and start applying it. (is your brain burning now???)

[Reg]

hey reg and bako. i ve read your replys and have a further question. if a chord has the capacity for extension,c maj 7 to E mi7 because it has a similarity, ins,t it possible the to say that you can keep extendind the extention indefinately . and if so ,everything is really related to everything. how do you stop this or is it just possabilities for someone who can concieve and hear the harmony.

Hey Richard... bakos pretty amazing...
I'll give you some basic info. first.
Tonality... refers to the relationships of tones,( Notes). Not simply using the tone or notes of a particular scale or note collection. It is how we organize the relationships between those tones.

Modality... refers to the choice of tones... between which those relationships exist.

When we decide to play or compose in a jazz style... or as in your question, replace existing chords with different ones... there are generally existing implications, the style, tonality and modality of existing changes and the organizing methodologies being used or implied. We're talking about jazz tunes right now...

Jazz has an implied set of methodologies... usually when we, 1) add or delete, 2)substitute or 3)re-harm. existing changes... we're doing so in the context of what's implied by the tune... and by the organizing concepts being used.

In the example of using chord extensions to derive substitute chords etc, there are other organizing concepts that also effect the choice of Subs... changing existing chords.
If you choose to compose a tune and use the chord extensions method to derive your harmonic scheme. You could do so... but the tune might not reflect a jazz style.

One of the differences between jazz and European classical musical tradition... Jazz has four basic harmonic organizing concepts being used or implied simultaneously, along with that classical tradition.
Part of playing jazz is how we balance the use of those concepts.
If we decide to employ that chord extension method of substituting chords...indefinitely...we would quickly lose that balance with other organizing concepts which define the style, tonality and modality of the jazz tune we're playing.
Sorry about going on... but there is lot going on if you want to get into it... Most of the time... we simply play... Reg

[JonR]

Within the idea of full extension, the whole scale is the chord.

Practically and musically speaking notes are omitted.
Some notes create clashes with the basic root triad of that degree.
In some situations this is a problem but in a modal environment the tension is just part of the color.

This is a crucial distinction!

Just for richard's information:

In "functional" harmony - which essentially means chord progressions in major or minor keys - dissonance needs to have a meaning. Eg, the tritone, which resolves inward to a major 3rd or outward to a minor 6th (inverted M3).
It's also the reason b9 intervals are avoided, because they have no easy resolution: it's a "nasty" dissonance rather than a pleasing tension.
That leads to the omission of certain higher extensions in certain chord types - in particular the 11th on I and V chords, the b13 on vi chords, and the b9 and b13 on iii chords. All of those are a half-step (or b9) above a triad chord tone.
(An exception is a b9 on a V7 chord in a minor key.)

In "modal" harmony (as bako says) dissonance has no functional meaning, because chords don't have to "lead" anywhere; it can just be treated as "colour". It doesn't matter if a chord contains all 7 notes of a scale (which blurs its identity), because it doesn't need a clear identity anyway.

So it's crucial to know what kind of harmony you are dealing with when considering what extensions are possible (or advisable). Generally, it's safest to assume chords are functional - and therefore certain extensions should be avoided. Eg, if the chords are built in 3rds, they are probably functional. (Modal chords tend to be built mostly in 4ths and 2nds.)
When adding extensions to any chord, always check how each extension sounds against every single note already in the chord. (Eg, you may not notice how bad an F sounds on a Cmaj7 chord unless you play it against the E alone.)

One way to work on the basic scale and the harmonic aspects at the same time is to play the scale against a drone. Play single notes, 2 notes, chords, in any combination and listen to the effect it produces.

C scale against the following drone notes C / D / E / F / G / A / B

This is a derivative approach.

Yes - also known as "relative" modes: same scale, different keynote.

One other way is to always keep the C drone and against it play the following Major scales

C / Bb / Ab / G / F / Eb / Db

= "parallel" modes: same keynote, different scales.

This is about understanding how modes work, of course, only indirectly connected to chord extension principles.

[bako]

"This is about understanding how modes work, of course, only indirectly connected to chord extension principles."

Jon,

In my mind it is very related. This is what I mean. Most extensions can be correlated to some scale or mode.

I first learnt suggested procedures about adding extensions and substitutions. I know I successfully managed to disorient some singers/band members with my earlier experiments. Learning to hear the component intervals of extensions in various combinations helped greatly. Improvising/exploring in relation to a drone note is an ear training exercise. You learn to hear the sound of a m3 in relation to a Ma9 or a m9, ect. and build a strong aural foundation.

[richard vandyne]

john and bako: forgive me if my understanding is off but from your explanations it seems that both functional and modal harmony have a unique place where composing is involved. if you want to be clear and consice in your writing it appears that sticking with functional harmony will be easier to understand and appreciate whereas if you use modal harmony it would give you license to explore more and anything will be more readily accepted. is it true then that you are more jazzier with the modal than the functional.(i may well be way off base but that is how i am interpreting your explanations) this is all new info for me and really appreciated.. thanks

[richard vandyne]

hey reg-glad to see you back,haven,t heard from you in a while. i just had some time to go over your notes that you sent me and would like a little clarification on my thinking.As i said to bako and john a few minutes ago-what i hear in most modern day jazz is what i think of as modal jazz-where the player is probably using the chord construction of the original music and playing it in his head-modally to give off his feelings for the original piece but only as his interpretation. If he decided to play it straight as written with minor variation he is playing in a functional manner and that is not really jazz as we hope to play it . If that is true then by extention is it better to study modal and forget the functional way of playing or is it better to continue to work both sides of the street? What i am seeing is that jazz is modal and functional is pop.

[Reg]

Hey Jon... are you making reference to H.Reimann's "Functional Harmony"... his simplified insight into harmonic progressions based on the idea that in any given key... there are only three functionally different chords. All the rest are variants of one of these three chord functions... somewhat of a pre-Schoenberg Structural Functions of Harmony.
Reg

[JonR]

Hey Jon... are you making reference to H.Reimann's "Functional Harmony"...

Not knowingly!

his simplified insight into harmonic progressions based on the idea that in any given key... there are only three functionally different chords. All the rest are variants of one of these three chord functions...

Yes, that's my understanding, but I don't remember where I picked it up. It makes sense to me (to my ears), but I can see there might be alternative viewpoints.

[Reg]

hey reg-glad to see you back,haven,t heard from you in a while. i just had some time to go over your notes that you sent me and would like a little clarification on my thinking.As i said to bako and john a few minutes ago-what i hear in most modern day jazz is what i think of as modal jazz-where the player is probably using the chord construction of the original music and playing it in his head-modally to give off his feelings for the original piece but only as his interpretation. If he decided to play it straight as written with minor variation he is playing in a functional manner and that is not really jazz as we hope to play it . If that is true then by extention is it better to study modal and forget the functional way of playing or is it better to continue to work both sides of the street? What i am seeing is that jazz is modal and functional is pop.

Hey Richard... more than happy to clarify...
Playing, hearing or composing using Modal concepts is one of the basics of jazz harmony. As I sad before... Modality refers to which of the notes in your collection... define the tonality. Tonality being the relationship of tones and how we organize the relationship between those tones.

Modal organization can also produce functional harmony... simply different than the Harmonic analysis derived from Classical tradition...( I'll skip the history lesson). What I believe Jon is making reference to...Functional Harmony.

All the concepts from traditional functional harmony are always implied... but what we as jazz players do is also imply different ...organizational systems, concepts, methodologies, generalized ideas, abstract terms, derive from chain of events, somewhat nominalism what ever you want to call other methods of defining function... not simply coloration or random chromatic alterations.

We as jazz players also imply harmony influenced by blue notes , extensive use of Modal Modulation... and generally pull from Melodic Minor... but don't use tonally as in traditional Functional Harmony.
If you think or hear each of these concepts as Doors... there always open. You don't necessarily need to use them all simultaneously all the time... but you can.
It's simply more layers of guidelines for your creative process...

Long story short... No. It's not simply Jazz equals Modal and pop equals functional tonality.
You can simply learn by trial and error or become aware of as much as you can, like I said, in the end we just play.
Reg

[bako]

Richard,

I'm not fully understanding what you are asking, it doesn't sound like anything I intended to say or how I think.

1st chart----I was trying to present a larger view of the idea of relatives/relationships beyond just the I and VIm.
It's a simple idea, lay out a scale in 3rds for 2 octaves and look at the adjacent triads and 7ths.
Even though these chords share 3 of 4 notes, the inclusion or exclusion of one note or interval can influence the harmonic function.
This is something best understood by the sound.

2nd chart----I charted the extensions generated by a major scale laid out in 3rds.
I describe these as harmonic aspects of the scale because that is how I think about it although they are often called modes (by me as well).
This too is best understood by the sound.

My feeling is that learning to hear is the most important initial step.
From that vantage point you can grasp what a rule or guideline is trying to communicate and form your own opinion.

Best,
Bako