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Hello all,
An important part of the learning process for me is to create a physical representation of what I've learned. Helps me lock it in. Anyway, I had some free time this week, so I made some stuff.
I hope you all feel free to give me feedback on: 1) things I have wrong 2) how I can improve.
They are in .doc format so you can download, fix it, improve it, make it your own. We all drink from wells we didn't dig.
Note: the "interval chart" is a remake of someone else's work. It is not my own. When I find the original source I'll post it. I recreated to help learn and to have a customizable version (the source I used was a .gif).
Thanks!
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02-24-2012 06:45 PM
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Suggested improvements for the chord scale chart:
Make the chord tone spelling and chord names consistent with the scale and key signature.
Ex. Key of A---A B C# D E F# G# A
AMa7---A C# E G# as opposed to A Db E Ab
There are 15 Major scales but 12 distinct notes. Write them all out.
7-----6-----5---4---3---2---1----0---1---2----3-----4-----5----6-----7-------(Number of sharps and flats in each key)
C#---F#---B---E---A---D---G---C---F---Bb---Eb---Ab---Db---Gb---Cb
-------Sharp Keys------------//---//-----------Flat Keys-----------------
These scales contain the same notes with different spellings
B and Cb // F# and Gb // C# and Db //
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Thanks for the suggestions for improvement, Bako.
I got you on being consistent with the chord tone spellings...thinking back, I'm not sure why I was doing that way?
As for the 15 major scales...thanks for mapping that out. Is that the circle of 4th (cycle of 5ths CCW)? I need to spend some time figuring out how to apply that. I guess this chart is a good place to start!
Thanks again for taking the time to respond and helping me learn more!
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Your welcome.
Maybe a simpler format:
Key------Sharps and Flats----------How Many
C#-------F# C# G# D# A# E# B#--------7
F#-------F# C# G# D# A# E#-------------6
B---------F# C# G# D# A#----------------5
E---------F# C# G# D#--------------------4
A---------F# C# G#------------------------3
D---------F# C#----------------------------2
G---------F#--------------------------------1
C--------------------------------------------0
F----------Bb-------------------------------1
Bb--------Bb Eb----------------------------2
Eb--------Bb Eb Ab------------------------3
Ab--------Bb Eb Ab Db--------------------4
Db--------Bb Eb Ab Db Gb----------------5
Gb--------Bb Eb Ab Db Gb Cb------------6
Cb--------Bb Eb Ab Db Gb Cb Fb---------7
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Hi!
Thats quite a good idea!! I dont have free time to help You in this project, but I hope I can support You later! After making it in all the keys, the minor tablet is also needed I think.
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Whoa - seeing it that way is pretty eye opening! It's like graphing my wife's monthly expenditures on chocolate and magazine subscriptions
Originally Posted by bako
Ok - I'll get to work on this this week and post up my progress!
Thanks for the feedback. Totally agree on creating a minor chart....so much to do. Hopefully it turns into a useful resource for other beginners (like me). Originally Posted by mrblues
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I did the exact same thing when I was learning, but like you my chart was strictly numerical. I did not assign letter spellings to the chart and to this day I hear only "relative" intervals at a certain level. It makes my navigation of inside and outside harmony absolutely effortless.
For me, knowing the note names is looking at the fretboard as an absolute. Knowing the fingerboard by numbers (intervals) is a relative orientation; it assists in my visualization of the total fingerboard at once, lets me see relationships, musical patterns, ascension and descension of chord scales with a unified vision of the fingerboard.
I made my particular chart with colour coding, intervals I associate with minor (-3 d7) I highlighted in red, major sounds I highlighted in green.
Later I made one where I highlighted triad shapes. This let me see the options of chord tones at a glance, see outside the reachable grid to adjacent finger areas through use of connecting triads which I could see as highlighted patterns.
These approaches are really useful if you are visually oriented. For me they were a little map of how my imagination was forming. This approach is not for everyone. I have students that don't/can't think this way. I have students that can only see the music they play in terms of note name spellings. For them, this mapping is intimidating and not so productive. It also presupposes a good intervalic "ear literacy" to see intervals. One needs to know what intervals mean to the ear before a map is useful in locating them for the fingers.
I created a chart for students. It has a fingerboard chart with the note names on it. That's the absolute orientation. Then I made a master chart with colours on clear plastic. I could overlay them on the chart and people could visualize the scales on the fingerboard. I also made individual clear plastic overlays for each chord scale we were studying. When we change key, the clear chart finds the root on the chart and the scale note names instantly reveal themselves. This was my unified field chart.
Hope this gives you some interesting ideas.
David
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David, truthhertz, would you mind posting some of these charts, etc, I would like to see them if you don't mind
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^This is me. Originally Posted by TruthHertz
Of course, it is vital to continue to work on memorizing the note names on the fretboard (I'm using apps like FretMaster), this visual chart of the intervals is really helping me dial in some chord voicing.
As for the Major Chord Scales, I've taken master bako's advice and built it out to include all 15 major scales. My 7 year old helped, so extra eyes for accuracy are welcome (as are additional suggestions for improvement).
Brian
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Yeah...that's a pretty sweet idea! I bet your students were cashing in that! Originally Posted by TruthHertz
ps...this forum needs a :thumbsup: emoticon.
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I show them only after we've talked about, gotten a feeling for and understand the real value of an intervallic approach linked with a proximal visualization. Otherwise I'm giving them something they will follow because I said so and not because they understand it. Originally Posted by onetruevibe
Yeah...that's a pretty sweet idea! I bet your students were cashing in that!
ps...this forum needs a :thumbsup: emoticon.
If they have an Aha! moment with the chart, I give them a blank 6 string tab template paper, some clear plastic overlays from Staples and tell them "get some sharpies and make it yourself." The process of filling in the numbers and note names is one of steady revealing. It's much better to make your own materials to match your idea than to copy a chart second hand. When you are already seeing it, this turns on the lights.
By the way, having a chart like that has the added benefit of being able to make the greatest chord voicings by seeing what you want in front of you. You can literally create your own chord vocabulary from what you can reach within the proximity of a root, or even better, without a root if you have a bass player or want to hit the root early in the measure and voice the chord.
It's all in knowing your options at a glance.
David
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So, at the end of the learning, you want your students to be able to create their own chart of intervals from memory? Is this the direction I should be heading? Originally Posted by TruthHertz
Exactly! Instead of just trying to memorize of bunch of grips (e.g. drop2 and shell), it was better for me to learn the theory behind the grips and then use the chart to build "my own." Originally Posted by TruthHertz
Sounds like I'm heading in the right direction!
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Yes, the end result is not to play from a template, methodology, tradition or muscle memory that overshadows your own initiative, but rather to respect all those things as ways to supplement your own concept. If you want to use grips on letter name roots, if that's what allows you to achieve satisfaction then that is your forte. You will develop your own style and satisfaction from that beginning. I merely offer a tool that shows a vision based on my own comfort and orientation. Originally Posted by onetruevibe
So, at the end of the learning, you want your students to be able to create their own chart of intervals from memory? Is this the direction I should be heading?
Exactly! Instead of just trying to memorize of bunch of grips (e.g. drop2 and shell), it was better for me to learn the theory behind the grips and then use the chart to build "my own."
Sounds like I'm heading in the right direction!
Seeing chords this way also assigns a harmonic and melodic identity to each voice. Instead of a "one grip chord" concept, you can see each voice and where it can move. This naturally leads to the ability to voice lead chords, see comping as a dynamic process, create comping lines that move and flow naturally. You can actually see voices move from one harmonic area to another.
The learning curve is much steeper at the beginning this way but once the plateau is reached, the possibilities are much more open.
I find it's much closer to the process of written composition, a thoughtful inventory of all available notes at each step. By the way, I have found that composing written out solos as chord solos and single lines is really helpful. Again, a good ear/mind relationship is absolutely foundational!
David
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I know the topic of modes is complex and can be confusing - it is not my intention add to that noise by posting this. I'm still a noob and I am still learning. I'm using this thread to post up things I'm working on to get some input from the pro's.
So using CMaj, I created charts that show the positions and note locations for the major modes with sixth and fifth string roots (see attached).
I keep an eye on these charts as I work through the changes of a tune. You'll notice I've colored some of the notes red - these are the notes that make the mode sound like the mode (e.g. the b7 for myxo mode) and I try to land on these notes.
My objective is to internalize the intervals and notes and slowly wean myself of the charts.
Please take a look and let me know if I have anything marked incorrectly or if you have suggestions on how I can make this chart or my practice routines more complete.
As always, thanks everyone for your willingness to help me learn more.
Brian
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Very nice. Try this one: Take that chart, use numbers instead of letters. Make your big chart of the entire fingerboard (using the same spacial scale of course), several octaves into redundancy, and on your numerical chart (with colour accents) go to your local office copy store and print them up on clear plastic. Then you can take your modes, put them over the master note chart and see the scale come alive with tensions, chord tones, passing tones, character notes and note names. This is what I was talking about.
Just a suggestion.
THAT is how I see the music when I'm soloing.
David
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Cool - I see now where you're taking me. How bog did you make your fingerboard chart? You said it was for your students, so I'm assuming it was classroom-sized?
I'm going to try it out on 8-1/2 by 11 first and see where that get's me.
Thanks again David. I think we see the "world" in a similar fashion.
Brian
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I put them on the regular 8.5x11 and used an overhead projector! HA! I am a luddite but that piece of tech I can live with. I got coloured sharpies for my templates and wipe-able markers to outline ideas and lines with. I also ALWAYS had a 1-12 two octave chart on the board too, like an x/y cartesian plot so I could show intervallic melody over time- like graph music. That is absolutely essential for ear training and learning that it's not in the fingers, it's in the music. Hey if you ever have a chance to pick up Gil Goldstein's excellent book on improvisation, it's one of the best works ever written. One of the many things he does is chart a piece in a linear graph chart.
Guitarists can all too easily fall into patterns of finger movement-one of the things all these visual approaches work to avoid.
David
And yes, I feel like we see the guitar in a very like way. By the way, this approach reveals new things every day and I've been playing for decades. Just this weekend I discovered that making big leaps from one chordal family to another across very different neighborhoods on the fingerboard could make a very dramatic contour in my chordal line. It also makes a more emphatic backdrop for motific playing. So having the facility of global vision is SUCH a powerful tool.Last edited by TH; 03-06-2012 at 11:07 AM.
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Overhead projector!!! So old-school!
I like to follow the latest tech trend (my job kind of requires it), but I usually stick with what works, first. If an overhead project gets the job done, then that's what should be used, IMO.
So...I created a fingerboard with the note names as well as the modes as intervals. The modes are centered and scaled to fit (pretty closely) the fingerboard.
I'll be printing off the transparencies as soon as I can get to Staples!
Note: the fingerboard I created was designed using this as a template. It's from guitarfriendly.com.
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Ok, I created an interactive utility for moving modes around the fingerboard last night. It's kind of a web-based version of David's approach to using transparencies. I'm sure there are a gazillion ways to present modes on the fingerboard, but this is the best I could come up with.
The fingerboard is displayed with the note names. You select a major mode from the list and the intervals of the mode are presented from the sixth-string and fifth-string root positions. You can then click on the "interval chart" for that mode and drag it to the fingerboard. Pretty straightforward.
Mode Utility
Just another project to help me dial this stuff in. Maybe someone else will find it useful, too. Let me know if you have any feedback on edits or opportunities for improvement.
edit: I already found a mistake on lydian 6th string-root. Can you find it? I'll have to update it tomorrow.Last edited by onetruevibe; 03-08-2012 at 06:46 PM.
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Pretty neat! Heh, mine is just one big modal transparency so you can see unorthodox leaps and jumps, make up your own fingerings and make tiny micro positions that can move around. Hey great to see you've set up a nice useful tool. I know it was and continues to be useful, but now I carry it around in my head.
Nice job. I hope it makes things really clear.
Amazing how a visual tool can unlock so many mysteries, eh?
David
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Thanks for the positive comments, David! I'm really loving this journey. Originally Posted by TruthHertz
Anyway, this is what I want - what you mentioned above! And my tool doesn't do it! Let me make sure I understand - are you saying that you have a transparency for each mode with the intervals covering the entire fingerboard? Whereas my "transparencies" are limited to just five-frets?
Brian
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Yup.
It's my feeling that our playing, the sounds we produce externally, are the direct result of the boundries and prejudices we have created internally. For me, it's a philosophical one as well as a visual and kinesthetic one. Our vision is a reflection of our concept but it also creates concept. If my vision involved 3 grab chord shapes, I would play that way. By extension, if my vision was built on one family of drop 2 chords, or a position of scales, or the internalized transcription of someone else's vision, I would play that way. If my vision is pan positional, I have my best chance at playing with texture deturmined by and limited just to the limits of my ear. If I want to think in diads going linearally up the fretboard because the relationship of a 2nd is essential to a phrase I'm developing, then having the entire fingerboard vision is absolutely essential. Remember, the fretboard has linearity to it too. Your vision shouldn't prejudice you. Remember, phrases come out of inconvenient finger positions but don't neglect them because there may be something overlooked in there. Also, a complete modal template lets you know that all connected "familiar" positions are interrelated. They are connected by vertical and horizontal movements (read Mick Goodrick's The Advancing Guitarist) and having a non specific modal position let's you see right from the start that neighborhoods are an easy commute away.
Again, this does fly in the face of position learning, so it may not be for you. I see the result of positional, derivative and kinesthetic based learning and I believe it's one of the reasons some guitarists find it so difficult to break out of their old habits, one of the reasons some guitarists consider voice leading beyond their abilities, one of the reasons some guitarists see such a huge disparity in the abilities of a good harmonic piano player and themselves.
A piano player has his chart right in front of him every time he sits down. This is my answer to creating a more useful vision for me as a guitarist. Non positional. It's there, but I can choose to see my positions in a context and not as a prison.
That's my philosophy on it, take it or leave it. Welcome to it for all it's worth.
David
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I'll take it for all it's worth, thank you very much. Originally Posted by TruthHertz
I needed to hear that.
I realized from your post that by exploring jazz I've broken out of one prison (pentatonic positions via blues) only to place myself into another (modal positions). While positions can be useful, my tool is evidence of my internally created boundaries (sixth and fifth root positions).
Below is a peek through the window to future freedoms! Stay tuned!
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