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Hey guys,
I should really know this, but I don't. So I put myself before thee, as ask thusly:
Harmonically speaking, when is the dominant 7 sharp 11 (dom7#11, sometimes also called dom7b5) employed? I see it a lot in some of the more advanced or modern lead sheets I'm encountering these days, but I'm not sure if there are standard ways of using this chord other than to just get "that sound."
I do know it's derived from melodic minor, but that's about it...
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02-07-2012 02:36 PM
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Take the A Train, measures 3 & 4? I'm happy to use it over any regular dominant chord that isn't the dominant in a minor key.
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Typically, lyd b7 sounds (i.e. 7#11) are used on dom 7ths that resolve down a half step or up a whole step. One can argue that the latter instance only applies when the resolution is to a structure with a major third.
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When it's resolving down a half step (like Db7#11 to CMaj7) it's just the altered scale by another name to me.
Originally Posted by M-ster
I'm thinking of your basic ii-V-I, Dm7 G7 CMaj7 -- I like the sound of G lydian dominant over that G7. It's sounds bright and modern without being outside. What's not to like there?
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So basically the same criteria we use when deciding to use the Lyd Dom scale. Which makes total sense, since Lyd Dom contains the 7#11 chord in it. Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
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Here are the main functional uses (examples mostly in C or Am):
"backdoor dominant" Bb7#11 goes to C, etc. Try Cmaj7 C7 Fmaj7 Bb7#11 Cmaj7. It subs for the minor plagal Fm6. Like Cmaj7 C7 Fmaj7 Fm6 Cmaj7. In some RC charts it is in there like that.
It resolves to Am too. Bb7#11 goes to Am. This gets dubbed a tritone sub. In F MM E7ALT is good for V7 of Am, and Bb7#11 has the same notes and inverted 3 and b7. You can use the parallel major to get Bb7#11 to Amaj7, or E7ALT to Amaj7. You can put m7b5's in front of them like Bm7b5 Bb7#11 Am or Dm7b5 Db7#11 Cmaj7.
It can be used as a dominant IV or bVI chord coloring. F7#11 and Cmaj7 sound good together. Same with F7#11 and Am. Try them out back and forth. Also mixed with the parallel major/minor you get F7#11 to Amaj7, and Ab7#11 to Cmaj7. Listen to Pink Panther and Bernie's Tune for overt i to bIV7#11 examples. Also, the resolve down a half-step trick works great in turnarounds like this with IV7#11 (really V7/iii tritone sub): F7#11 Em7 A7b9 Dm7 G7 Cmaj7. Or you can borrow more... F7#11 Em7 Eb7#11 Dm7 Db7#11 Cmaj7. Big chromatic bass movement.
And it is a dominant, so it fits good old V7 chords. Miles's Tune Up uses them in the descending ii V7 I's. Em11 A7#11 Dmaj7 % Dm7 G7#11 Cmaj7 %. The #11 and P5 are both in the melody strongly (not just "lower chromatic neighbor tones").
And yes, they can just be that cool color chord randomly dropped into a tune too! In A Train it's kind of a V/V7 coloring (and a very catchy one to boot!). Overall, they are "Lydian dominant" chords from Melodic "Jazz" Minor. No "avoid notes" 7#11 is a shorthand. The natural 9th and 13th are commonly played in the mix. Other MM chords can sub for them to get other interesting mixes. You can sub Bb7#11 and E7ALT, like above, but you can also sub Abmaj#5 or other same-subset modal chords. Try them out!
Hope that helps.
Last edited by JonnyPac; 02-07-2012 at 03:27 PM.
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i find that Dom7#11 can be used on any Dom chord that isnt resolving.
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Er ... yeah, but it's G7alt (in your example). IOW, G7 alt = Db7 lyd b7. Said another way, both are modes of Ab mel minor. That's why tri-tone substitution works. The two dom 7ths are two aspects of the same thing. Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
Last edited by M-ster; 02-07-2012 at 03:42 PM.
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Indeed. Originally Posted by M-ster
I also use the V7#11 when resolving to the tonic as well as all of the aforementioned applications by JP, though it was mentioned that the op used it on non resolving Dom7. After all, we use altered V's all the time in their many incarnations depending on application.Last edited by brwnhornet59; 02-08-2012 at 02:44 AM.
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I read that LD can be used over 7sharp11 chords and non resolving/non functioning dominants.
Non resolving/non functioning dominants are ones that don't move to I or i yes?
So is bII7 - I/i functioning or non functioning dominant?
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It's the tritone sub of V7. Technically some still call it V7. It is a perfect cadence and very functional. Did anyone read my post? I thought it would clarify this stuff...
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b5/#11 comes from:
Melodic Minor VI and VII
Half/Whole Diminished
Whole Tone
the b5 sound is also part of the blues scale color
Some times notes are treated as chordal colors and extensions, sometimes as resolving suspensions to the primary chord tones and sometimes as a short passing note.
#11/b5 is usable in each of these capacities.
Chord types also emerge simply from the movement or lack of movement of chordal voices in a sequence.
I'll respond to your question by posing another, where can it not be used?Last edited by bako; 02-07-2012 at 05:43 PM.
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A functioning Dom is when it resolves to the tonic.
Non functioning is just creating tension so that you can continue movement in an interesting way. Lot's of ways to use them like Jonny said.
Typically when you see a bII7 it is a tritone sub resolving down to the tonic.Last edited by brwnhornet59; 02-08-2012 at 02:12 AM.
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Not many places? Originally Posted by bako
In a standard Blues, could you use it over the I, IV and V?
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Blue 7 by Rollins is that way. Listen to it asap and learn the head!
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That is truly wonderful, mate. Thank you... still listening...
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You may use it however you want where a V chord is. The only thing you have to worry about is if there is a melody line running. If the melody has a perfect 4th and or 5th depending, at that bar, you will want to use caution. But that is not that often. Dom chords are full of tension, that is why they beg to move. Originally Posted by LvJz
Last edited by brwnhornet59; 02-08-2012 at 02:26 AM.
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Yeah man that was a really great and complete post Originally Posted by JonnyPac
you write good ;0)
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Right. Is there also reason that the fourth degree is raised to prevent certain m9 clashes with the tonal centre? Originally Posted by brwnhornet59
Like say the bVI in Help The Poor. You wouldn't be able to play straight Mixolydian over the Bb cuz it creates a m9 sound with the tonic.
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Are you talking about BB Kings tune?
The reason the 4th is raised is because we are borrowing from the 4th mode of MM, which is lydian dom.. If the chord was a Bb7#11 then you are borrowing from FMM. Blues are full of tension because the I IV V are all dom7 chords. b9's are very common in blues as well.
As was said earlier, depending on it's origin the chord is either a V7#11 from MM, or it is a V7b5, coming from h/w dim or wholetone. Are you familiar with these three pools of notes?
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Right on! That drum solo is LONG! Originally Posted by LvJz
Thanks- I hope it helps! I use those all the time, and they are totally "inside choices". You always have good info too- very complete. Originally Posted by pingu
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When to use the magic chord that unlocks all the harmonic options of bebop? Whenever possible. To me, this is what makes jazz sound like jazz.
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Originally Posted by FatJeff
Take the A train is probably the best example... you use lydian dom over secondary (non diatonic) dominant chords...
the A train: I C I D7#11 (fits here!!) I Dm7 G7 I C I
Hope that helps...
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Is my post (#6) totally jargon that only pingu can dig?
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Holy crap, I turn my back on a post for a couple of hours and it explodes! Don't you guys have practicing to do?? :-)
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