When to employ the dominant 7 sharp 11

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 08-12-2012, 01:04 AM

Originally Posted by funkifized

So, it seems as though chromatic root notes get the Lydian Dominant scale. Why, then, would the D7 in A Train be #11? Why A MM instead of D Mixolydian?

Well, the held notes in the melody ascend: G (over C) G# (over D7) A (over Dm7)

**funkifized** · 08-12-2012, 02:44 AM

Why wouldn't that be D7aug., from Whole Tone Scale harmony? I mean I hear that it sounds good, but I can't figure out how the theory supports it.

**AmundLauritzen** · 08-12-2012, 06:08 AM

Because the b5 is the tritone, you can use that chord anywhere you'd tritone sub. Anywhere you use that dom7b5 you can also use the one a tritone away.

I like the chord and how it lays on the guitar. Very dissonant. To me even moreso than the full blown altered voicings. Intervallic structure is what it's about.

**JonR** · 08-12-2012, 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by funkifized

Why wouldn't that be D7aug., from Whole Tone Scale harmony? I mean I hear that it sounds good, but I can't figure out how the theory supports it.

It could be. The essential notes (IMO) are the E and G# in the melody, and the D root. And I guess an F# and C somewhere in the harmony. Those 5 notes could come from D wholetone, as well as D lydian dominant.
The decider is whether you want a perfect 5th or a #5.
The P5 (A) is more in keeping with the harmony either side, if you think that's an important issue.

Personally I'd go with lydian dominant, although it's not a typical LD chord. (The LD scale tends to be used on any dom7 which is not acting as either a V7 or a secondary dominant; in this case, you could argue the D7 is a secondary dominant, "V/V".)

**jster** · 08-12-2012, 05:50 PM

It seems as though the D7b5 is functioning as a kind of secondary dominant, setting up expecations for the A, but then it actually goes to the D-7. The tritone gets released. How does it get released? The D stays put. The G# goes up to A. And the F# goes down to F. So in addtion to the tritone getting released you get a major second (F#G#) going to a stronger major third (FA). Not sure what you guys think of that. But then, and this the main point I wanted to make: the A is a target for bar 5, so think I think you would want to play it anyway in bar 4. Does that make any sense Jon? I have a bunch of follow up questions and an unrelated question, but maybe I should wait in case I'm talking nonsense.

**2bornot2bop** · 08-12-2012, 11:08 PM

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

When to use the magic chord that unlocks all the harmonic options of bebop? Whenever possible. To me, this is what makes jazz sound like jazz.

Reading Diz's bio some 20 plus years back that reminds me of the passage when he was giddy describing the day he discovered how to use "flat 5's", as he called it.

**funkifized** · 08-13-2012, 01:33 AM

I don't see this chord resolving to Dm7. I see both D7#11 and Dm7 resolving to G7. D7#11 resolving to G7, with G7 being preceded by Dm7. Seems like D7#11 should be borrowed chord from the temporary key of Am. However, I see nothing else that points to this. I would consider D7 as V/V. Where does the G# come from, then?

The chord scale for V7 is mixolydian.
The chord scale for V7/II is mixolydian b13.
The chord scale for V7/III is mixolydian b9 (optionally #9), b13.
The chord scale for V7/IV is mixolydian.
The chord scale for V7/V is mixolydian.
The chord scale for V7/VI is mixolydian b9 (optionally #9), b13.
[Harmony Workbook 3, Barrie Nettles, Berklee College of Music]

Where does D7#11 in "A Train" fit into this?

**jster** · 08-13-2012, 04:29 AM

@funkifized: It doesn't fit exactly into that because of the #11. You have to look at minor harmony to find a parent scale. So then I asked myself, what is the b5 doing? It is heading to the 5. Maybe resolve isn't the right term. Which brings me to a follow up question? Is this a topic in voice leading? Or linear harmony? Because if you isolate the two tones that are changing from bar 4 to bar 5, there is a release. No more tritone. Among other things. Most of this thread seems to be apporaching it from a CST point of view. But what about functional harmony? What is the function of that chord? As I said, I am happy to see it as a V/V, but there is still a little problem that it doesn't go to V, but ii, and it sounds good doing that. Does functional harmony explain that?

**JonR** · 08-13-2012, 09:51 AM

Originally Posted by jster

@funkifized: It doesn't fit exactly into that because of the #11. You have to look at minor harmony to find a parent scale. So then I asked myself, what is the b5 doing? It is heading to the 5. Maybe resolve isn't the right term. Which brings me to a follow up question? Is this a topic in voice leading? Or linear harmony? Because if you isolate the two tones that are changing from bar 4 to bar 5, there is a release. No more tritone. Among other things. Most of this thread seems to be apporaching it from a CST point of view. But what about functional harmony? What is the function of that chord? As I said, I am happy to see it as a V/V, but there is still a little problem that it doesn't go to V, but ii, and it sounds good doing that. Does functional harmony explain that?

AFAIK, functional harmony is OK with a V/V going to ii before V. But there is still the G# to explain.
I agree with funkifized that - while this seems to be a standard V/V in some ways - the G# melody note seems out of place. Lydian dominant is not a conventional scale for a secondary dominant. (If a SD does have any kind of alteration, it would more likely be altered scale or HW dim. However, the wholetone scale is a likely candidate.)

Of course, there's a danger of over-analysing this (or analysing with the wrong tools)! It's obviously designed as a grindingly dissonant note - emulating the sound of a train - so the fact that it seems "wrong" according to functional harmony (or at least hard to explain) might well be quite deliberate.
After all, a more conventional way of harmonising that melodic line would be to use E7, not D7, and then go to Am for the A note in bar 5 - which would be deadly boring of course. It's like D7(#11) was chosen as a deliberately "out there" harmony, making the G# a dissonant #4/b5.
There are other interesting chromaticisms in the tune, such as the Db on the G7 (a b5 again) resolving down to the root of C. And in the bridge, the last Ab (harmonised with Bdim7 this time, or G7b9) resolving down to the opening G.

**funkifized** · 08-13-2012, 02:38 PM

So, that tells me that the D7#11 really is out of place, except for the strong G# melody note? Otherwise, if I saw D7 in the key of C, it would likely be D Mixolydian?

Another question related to this: is there such thing as D7(b5) on it's own? Seems that the only scalar way to make this happen is the altered scale, as the major third, perfect 4th, and diminished 5th really can't coexist in a conventional scale, as they're all half-steps from each other. A D9(b5) doesn't really exist in scale terms, AFAIK. Although, I suppose an argument could be made for Whole Tone scale giving us D9(b5). Am I on the right track here?

**brwnhornet59** · 08-13-2012, 03:22 PM

Wholetone would give the #11...

You could get D7b5 from h/w dim but the 9ths would be altered.

**JonR** · 08-13-2012, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by funkifized

So, that tells me that the D7#11 really is out of place, except for the strong G# melody note? Otherwise, if I saw D7 in the key of C, it would likely be D Mixolydian?

If going to G(7), yes, IMO.

(And following from that, D lydian dominant is the obvious choice if G# is the only different note!

)

Originally Posted by funkifized

Another question related to this: is there such thing as D7(b5) on it's own?

Why not?

Originally Posted by funkifized

Seems that the only scalar way to make this happen is the altered scale, as the major third, perfect 4th, and diminished 5th really can't coexist in a conventional scale, as they're all half-steps from each other.

Ah, but why does there have to be a P4? The wholetone scale does away with that.

Originally Posted by funkifized

A D9(b5) doesn't really exist in scale terms, AFAIK.
Although, I suppose an argument could be made for Whole Tone scale giving us D9(b5). Am I on the right track here?

Yes! "9b5" is a clear wholetone indicator (as is "9#5").

**JonR** · 08-13-2012, 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

Wholetone would give the #11...

You could get D7b5 from h/w dim but the 9ths would be altered.

Yes, but strictly speaking the "b5" would be a #4, seeing as there is a P5 too.
Of course, the 8 notes mean two of one of the notes (both altered 9ths, usually), so it's somewhat academic...

**brwnhornet59** · 08-13-2012, 03:47 PM

Originally Posted by JonR

Yes, but strictly speaking the "b5" would be a #4, seeing as there is a P5 too.
Of course, the 8 notes mean two of one of the notes, so it's somewhat academic...

Agreed..That is also why I would consider the b5 of wholetone a #4, it already has a #5, of course we could look at it as being a twofer for the 5 team...In the end knowing where/what one is drawing from and how to apply it is the answer that matters...

**bako** · 08-13-2012, 04:12 PM

I am not sure of the best theoretical explanation but it is a very basic common sound.

C / % / C+ / % / F / G7

C / % / D7 / % / Dm7 / G7

CMa6/9 / % / C+ / % / Dm7 / G13

CMa6/9 / % / C+/F# / % / Dm7 / G13

CMa6/9 / % / D9#11 / % / Dm7 / G13

**jster** · 08-13-2012, 04:41 PM

Originally Posted by JonR

It's obviously designed as a grindingly dissonant note - emulating the sound of a train

Where did you get that? It's a subway, so no whistle. But the horn section certainly sounds like a steam locomotive. Do you have a reference for that?

**funkifized** · 08-15-2012, 02:02 AM

Originally Posted by JonR

Why not?
Ah, but why does there have to be a P4? The wholetone scale does away with

I was considering the #11 instead of the b5. I was thinking that a wholetone scale does away with P4 by making it #11, and then incorporating #5.

**JonR** · 08-15-2012, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by jster

Where did you get that? It's a subway, so no whistle. But the horn section certainly sounds like a steam locomotive. Do you have a reference for that?

I didn't mention "whistle", I said "sound of a train". I'm sure subway trains make "grinding" noises

(they do in London...). I guess other aspects of the arrangement might emulate sounds which could be interpreted as either steam locos or subway rhythms.

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 08-15-2012, 05:01 PM

So locomotive == whole tone scale?

**JonR** · 08-16-2012, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

So locomotive == whole tone scale?

Possibly.

There's a nice comment in Mark Levine's Jazz Theory Book, quoting a jazz musician who sardonically described the sound of the wholetone scale as "Bambi emerging from the forest". One can guess it wasn't that musician's favourite scale

.

And not much like a locomotive, in that case...

Talking of emulating the sound of locomotives, there's this Django Reinhardt track (hehe, I said "track"...

)

Scale? Not a scale, but a C6 arpeggio with chromatic approaches. But it does have one thing in common with A-Train: the starting and ending note of the main lead phrase is F#, the #4 of the chord.
The wacky half-step rise for the bridge predates "So What" by some 20 years of course, of course

- but I don't think Miles intended it as a gag in quite the same way.

**cubistguitar** · 08-16-2012, 10:43 AM

I am late to this discussion, wow is it good stuff.

As far a "A train" goes I tend to agree with bako that the second chord is a type of C aug with a D bass note. At least it sounds and acts like that kind of progression.

I mean the idea that the D chord has a perfect fifth makes no sense to me at all. It is an example of a non-functioning dominant, but it doesn't seem the best fit for the lyd dom scale. Case by case these things go, not just apply the rules as rote learned, I love the indepth on what people know right off the top of their head. Amazing range or knowledge here on this forum.

**AmundLauritzen** · 08-16-2012, 05:19 PM

I oftentimes think regular D7 for that. Often even as a two-five so I can play Am7 material on it as well. To me, my most common two-five vocab includes: Dorian(from the II) Mixolydian, dominant bebop, lydian dominant and symmetrical diminished. All those work fine on the A-train D7 chord.

A minor 6th pentatonic is also a neat scale(A,C,D,E,F#). One of my favorite scales because it gives a very breckerish flavor. I have many superimposition options for that scale that I use. In this example a very inside choice, but very good in that context!

**cubistguitar** · 08-16-2012, 06:36 PM

Originally Posted by AmundLauritzen

I oftentimes think regular D7 for that. Often even as a two-five so I can play Am7 material on it as well. To me, my most common two-five vocab includes: Dorian(from the II) Mixolydian, dominant bebop, lydian dominant and symmetrical diminished. All those work fine on the A-train D7 chord.

OK, I guess I get that bebop will open up a pandora's box of option that make good jazz sense, but I think it helps me in my pursuit to hear the harmony in the tune in the break. I just don't hear D Mixolydian or Lydian dom on this chord. It is not passing, it is the destination for just a moment, I can't think how i would justify the A natural over the D9#11 and remain true to the harmony Duke has constructed. A passing tone yes, but a note that I would target, probably not. The tune rather wants the A natural kept out until the next measure. I couldn't not have that tension as part of my leads as well.

I like a debate, but I have decide not to debate on forums, i respect your opinions on how to approach this, and most of these options work for me too, but not the ones with a strong 5th in the chord/scale. Just don't work to my tin ear.