Counterpoint

[Tobi]

I don't exactly know where to post this, being it's a mix of chords, melodies, and possibly improvisation. After watching the Ted Greene baroque improvs and a another I can't remember, I've become interested in counterpoint. After reading a bit, I'm kind of grasping it, kind of not. But I'll get a hang of it.

My question is, does jazz counterpoint have as many strict rules as baroque? With the extended chords and the like, I wouldn't think so. Are there any counterpoint using guitarists I should know of? And I'm pretty sure we all know playing basslines, melodies, and chords at the same time is no easy feat. Are there any general tips I could use?

[robertm2000]

Jazz counterpoint doesn't have strict rules like classical counterpoint - it's more of a stylistic thing, an idea rather than set principles. As much as anything, it can be looked at as two or more musicians playing melodic lines at the same time, that fit together in a linear fashion, over the course of phrases rather than just "vertical" or clock chord fashion. Many times when you have a bass and a solo instrument, it comes out similar to two part counterpoint. Joe Pass's playing has a lot of "linear" melodies. Grant Green was another one who used a lot of melodies. Classical counterpoint is based on two-part harmony and two melodic lines playing - J. S. Bach's Lute Suites use two part counterpoint a lot, as does his Two-Part Inventions for keyboards. Jazz being improvisation, it is rather difficult to do counterpoint-like playing.

When you have more than one melodic instrument, especially in bebop, you often have the instruments playing melodies at the same time, producing a counterpoint effect. If the musicians aren't cognizant of the interlocking idea of counterpoint - playing with rather than clashing with each other - they sometimes spiral off into a cutting contest instead of supporting each other. If you have musicians who "get it," it can be really exciting to listen to. One of the best examples of such playing is the opening number in the film "Jazz on a Summer's Day" - it has Bob Brookmeyer, Jimmy Giuffre, and Jim Hall playing a trio, and it's a spectacular display of musicians playing together and creating improvised counterpoint

[JonnyPac]

Jazz counterpoint doesn't have strict rules like classical counterpoint - it's more of a stylistic thing, an idea rather than set principles. As much as anything, it can be looked at as two or more musicians playing melodic lines at the same time, that fit together in a linear fashion, over the course of phrases rather than just "vertical" or clock chord fashion. Many times when you have a bass and a solo instrument, it comes out similar to two part counterpoint. Joe Pass's playing has a lot of "linear" melodies. Grant Green was another one who used a lot of melodies. Classical counterpoint is based on two-part harmony and two melodic lines playing - J. S. Bach's Lute Suites use two part counterpoint a lot, as does his Two-Part Inventions for keyboards. Jazz being improvisation, it is rather difficult to do counterpoint-like playing.

When you have more than one melodic instrument, especially in bebop, you often have the instruments playing melodies at the same time, producing a counterpoint effect. If the musicians aren't cognizant of the interlocking idea of counterpoint - playing with rather than clashing with each other - they sometimes spiral off into a cutting contest instead of supporting each other. If you have musicians who "get it," it can be really exciting to listen to. One of the best examples of such playing is the opening number in the film "Jazz on a Summer's Day" - it has Bob Brookmeyer, Jimmy Giuffre, and Jim Hall playing a trio, and it's a spectacular display of musicians playing together and creating improvised counterpoint

Good topic and great reply.

The idea of "linear harmony" popularized (if not coined) by Bert Ligon, is a fresh look at counterpoint without all of the "old" pesky classical rules. It also has improvisation first in mind, whereas a lot counterpoint is based of composition and arranging written parts.

I like to think of real-time counterpoint playing as a series of probabilities. You can play it safe, or go high-risk by thinking this way, but in either case, you are weeding out a lot of chaotic jamming that might have undesirable results.

Here's a simple idea: It can be safe to assume there is a chord implied or stated in a given measure, that the bass will hit a definitive stable tone of that chord on a strong beat (usually the down beat), and that the melody will tell you something colorful about the harmony. By playing a "guide tone" over the bass note (at the same time, or near it) you get the skeletal beginnings of linear counterpoint. The root is stated, the guide tone (the 3rd is common) in the line, and the 5th is implied by the overtones and "inside choice", you get the whole (basic) chord without the necessity of chordal instrument comping.

That's just the beginning; it gets really interesting and fun the more you experiment and see how the greats of jazz used this stuff constantly.

Here's a crash-course on linear harmony. Be sure to check out Ligon's books if you get hooked.

https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/impro...c-devices.html

[JakeAcci]

I think of most (all?) music as "having" counterpoint, just not necessarily following specific rules associated with methodical beginning approaches to composition.

Counterpoint is not, by definition, a set of rules.

I like "The Advancing Guitarist's" approach to counterpoint, which, if I remember correctly was more or less: Experiment with all motion types, parallel, oblique, contrary, similar.

I think you won't find that all that falls under the jazz umbrella follows one set of rules for how lines move with each other. There is a continuum between two voices playing in unison or in parallel fifths all the way to multiple voices all simultaneously having seemingly unrelated melodies.

The way I see it, any guitarist that plays more than one note at a time is "using" counterpoint - some may just have far more parallel and similar motion in their multiple-voiced playing than others.

[fumblefingers]

i'm a little bit rusty with my theory but i think that people are confusing voice leading and part writing with counterpoint, in this thread.

harmony and voice movement is all part of homophonic music. playing more than one note is not a definition for counterpoint.

counterpoint is typically used as a term to describe polyphonic music, no matter how many parts are written. and you are not limited to 2, by the way...

[JonnyPac]

I think you are right, FF. I made the assumption that we were discussing homophonic music with counterpoint-like ideas, "linear harmony" if you will...

[silentcityrob]

I don't think Bach stayed much within the realms of species counterpoint so I'm sure rules can be broken for Jazz!

A few years ago, I do remember my teacher giving me a "portland jazz jams" podcast that featured Chris Woitach explaining about how he incorporates contrapuntal lines into his playing. It was quite useful but I've not been able to find it since.

If you can get hold of a copy of Bach's Sonatas and Parititas for solo violin, there's some really nice fugues in there to get you used to that style of playing. Pretty good for sight reading too.

[fumblefingers]

I don't think Bach stayed much within the realms of species counterpoint so I'm sure rules can be broken for Jazz!

A few years ago, I do remember my teacher giving me a "portland jazz jams" podcast that featured Chris Woitach explaining about how he incorporates contrapuntal lines into his playing. It was quite useful but I've not been able to find it since.

If you can get hold of a copy of Bach's Sonatas and Parititas for solo violin, there's some really nice fugues in there to get you used to that style of playing. Pretty good for sight reading too.

i saw Woitach's Truefire course today where he mentioned counterpoint as well. i didn't watch the entire lesson so was not sure what he had to say about it in toto. i did see where he mentioned a bass line against a melody line. that made me think, is that really counterpoint? i think that the answer is "it depends". it depends on the content of each line.

certainly homophonic compositions contains bass lines, accompaniment, and a melody line, all without the notion of being strongly "contrapuntal".

[markf]

steve herberman, jazz guitar player, works in this area. he has some youtube videos, and lessons.

[JonnyPac]

It's funny having homophinic conditioned ears... I wonder if I'll ever really hear polyphonic music like you are supposed to. Oh well- It's all good!

[CGKnight]

I'm working on learning this very thing - improvising a bassline, melody and chords together, and improvising contrapuntally in 3 or more voices. Nice to see someone else who's into this rather niche area.

By the way, counterpoint in jazz is rare, not because jazz is improvisation based, but because it's usually group improvisation based.

To hear improvised counterpoint...
Check out Marcel Dupre, Pierre Cochereau, David Briggs and Daniel Roth.
Check out Charles Mingus' "Jazzical Moods" a.k.a. "The Jazz Experiments of Charles Mingus".
Ted Greene is good but I don't consider his work to be counterpoint - too homophonic, and even the two-line Baroque improv videos, it's more like 'play one line, then play the other' (as he himself hints), instead of 'play both together' - what baffles me is, it is possible to focus on both (or more lines) together, and a genius like Greene didn't do it. Mystery.

silentcityrob - I don't claim to be an expert on this and perhaps I misread you, but species counterpoint is merely a set of exercises. Real 'free' counterpoint is not as strict.

I can post a few resource links and exercises if required.

I too am intrigued by the 'jazz/modern counterpoint' thing - suppose one ditches the dissonance rules and the preference for 3rds and 6ths, and doesn't away shy from using extended/altered chords, what new sounds could one arrive at?

[yotsn]

CG-

Can you help me find specific stuff by these guys?

"Check out Marcel Dupre, Pierre Cochereau, David Briggs and Daniel Roth."

They look like classical organists to me, playing classical music. Am I missing the improv stuff?

Also, I'd love to look at any exercises you have!

[jtizzle]

I've been really into counterpoint for a while now. There are different ways to look at it in jazz.
Classical/Baroque counterpoint uses limitations, not rules. Schoenberg says so in his Theory of Harmony book. Many of the so called "rules" have really no explanation to them. If you check out Gradus ad Parnassum, there are a few points where the "student" asks the "teacher" why is that mistake not permissible, and the "teacher" answers that even he doesn't know why.

Anyways, in jazz, you can look at counterpoint in terms of the whole overall sound, so the mixture of sounds between the harmonic instruments, melodic instruments, and rhythm instruments. It requires a lot of listening, but it involves knowing where your place is in terms of where you fit in sonically. There's the whole rule of "if the melodic instrument is up high, you want to comp down low", no voice crossing (always stay above the bass). There's rhythmic counterpoint, basically catching rhythms and complementing, juxtaposing, contrasting, or imitating them.
You can also look at counterpoint only in terms of the written material. So, basically writing material that uses your definition of counterpoint. It can be strict species counterpoint, or more advanced stuff.
You can look at counterpoint also in terms of your own instrument, in our case, the guitar. I work this way a lot, basically by taking tunes and writing out 4-part harmonies and applying them to the instrument. It's really hard at first, as you don't have a lot of space to move in with the voicing, but it can create some really interesting voicings, and since the voice leading will be great, because that's the main intention, you can get really adventurous with the harmonies. It's up to you if you want to follow strict counterpoint, but remember, 16th and 18th century counterpoint (which are the most popularly studied) obviously have not adapted to modern harmonic ideas, such as parallelism, pandiatonicism, serialism, symmetry, etc. So there are things, such as parallel movement, voice direction (like the whole moving from perfect to perfect consonances have to go in oblique or contrary motion) that you can choose to ignore, or apply. Different limitations will create different sounds, it depends on where you want to go with this.

I'd suggest checking out the record Lathe Of Heaven by Mark Turner. It's a pretty good example of modern counterpoint, as a lot of the parts are written out, and having no harmonic instruments, it's all single voices moving together, or counterpoint.

[pushkar000]

A relevant link with some lessons and etudes.
David Oakes

[Cunamara]

I too am intrigued by the 'jazz/modern counterpoint' thing - suppose one ditches the dissonance rules and the preference for 3rds and 6ths, and doesn't away shy from using extended/altered chords, what new sounds could one arrive at?

Ornette in 1959.