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Originally Posted by Ron Stern
Simply, if you add an F to a Cmaj7 chord, it sounds nasty. Try it and see. If you're not sure, listen to just the E and F on their own. (Put the F an octave and half-step above the E for maximum effect.)
Originally Posted by Ron Stern
Or rather, the dissonance it makes with B is acceptable in some chords (such as G7 or Bdim7), just not in a Cmaj7.
Originally Posted by Ron Stern
Eg, the sequence Dm7-G7-Cmaj7#11 will sound like a ii-V-I in C major, but with a raised 11th added to the tonic chord.
Originally Posted by Ron Stern
The "theory" comes from the fact that this is what jazz musicians do. Levine is trying to explain what he has heard jazz musicians do. This is where "music theory" comes from: codifying common musical practices.
Levine knows that a C major scale with a raised 4th is known as "lydian mode". This is a very old piece of theory that predates jazz (by several centuries). So he's kind of borrowing a term instead of inventing a new one. (Never a good idea to invent new theory terms if you don't have to.)
Originally Posted by Ron Stern
Originally Posted by Ron Stern
Originally Posted by Ron Stern
It omits a lot of very important stuff about functional harmony, the kind that all jazz before 1959 was based on. It's deficient in that sense.
Like the others say, study some other theory books - including "Jazzology" and anything by Bert Ligon.
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01-05-2012 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by JonR
JonR, you gave substance to a lot of my thoughts.
But I must address on of your points. I thought the theory is that in any given key, the natural 4th will sound unacceptably dissonant with the IMaj7 chord when played together (other than when playing the 4th quickly. So you can take this theory and whenever you have a IMaj7, you know the 4th would sound better if raised a half step.
So in the Key of G, for a static GMaj7 chord, you would not want to play and hold a "C" at the same time, but you could use a "C#." The same would be true for the key of D, you would raise the G to a G#.
Is this not what Levine was trying to convey in this instance? If so, then this is a where the "theory" comes in because it is a principle that can be applied to all the different keys. (Of course, you can break this rule if you like the way it sounds, but it is not a widely accepted practice in our music tradition).
Is my assessment correct in your humble opinion Mr. JonR?
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Thread on testing out theories...
https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/theor...-yourself.html
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Thanks to all for your help.
I don't get the conflict or dissonance or problem or whatever the hell it is we're talking about, with regard to the 4 vs. Imaj7 and/or 4 vs. 3 vs. Imaj7. It all sounds good to me.
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LOL, hey man, when in doubt keep it simple.
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Originally Posted by Ron Stern
Eventually, I will probably be able to just randomly play my guitar and it will be called music. And, I can also turn over a can of nails and screws on a tin mat and maybe kick a dog and someone will call it music. Just like guys throwing paint on a mat and calling it art.
Where does it end and start to become a cacophony? Or is it all up to the listener or artist to decide? I guess everything - beauty, art, good, evil, darkness, light- is all relative.
Judge not, eh?
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From Robert Rawlins review:
[7] In attempting to build a theory of chord/scale relationships from a modal point of view instead of traditional diatonic function, Levine gets into difficulties immediately. He begins with a "Major Scale Harmony" chart, but does not list chords according to diatonic function. Instead, Levine presents a list of the seven modes associated with the diatonic scale and attempts to assign an appropriate chord to each.(3) Placing himself in the untenable position of having to pull all seven notes of each mode into a verticalization, Levin is in trouble on the first chord, since the C chord (the unacknowledged tonic) has an F in it. Levine observes: "There is a note in the scale that is much more dissonant than the other six notes....This is a so-called 'avoid' note....'Avoid note' is not a very good term, because it implies that you shouldn't play the note at all. A better name would be a 'handle with care' note" (p. 37). Levine goes on to explain that improvisers generally treat the note as a passing tone, but nowhere does he mention the note's tendency to resolve to the third. Nor is there any suggestion that the seven notes of the mode (the "available pool of notes" [p. 32]) should be considered in any hierarchical order. Indeed, the very term "avoid note" suggests an embellishing tone, but there is no mention of what is being embellished. Presumably, the members of the tonic triad have no particular importance beyond that of the other notes in the Ionian mode.(4)
Using maj7#11 in place of a good old tonic major in non-jazz contexts and in older jazz styles will upset some listeners by sounding "wrong" (regardless of how cool is can sound in modern modal-based jazz). I love Lydian as much as the next modal junkie but I am mature enough to use in proper contexts without any blanket always or never rules.
Huff huff.Last edited by JonnyPac; 01-05-2012 at 07:06 PM.
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Perhaps I owe more than I knew to Frank Zappa.
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Maybe Zappa had it right all along....
Just enjoy.
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One of my old employers on a music store played with Zappa back in the day. He said that Frank was always looking for the "stinkiest notes"- The opposite of "avoid notes"? lol "Jazz is not dead it just smells funny"...
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The explanations I offered:
- the interval between the chord's major 3rd and the 11th (=4th) is a minor second
- the interval between the major 7th and the 11th is a tritone
Those intervals are considered dissonant. Whether they sound good or not is not the question at hand.
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Originally Posted by AlsoRan
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Originally Posted by Sphere
I do take one other thing from this thread. Like men wearing pants and women wearing skirts, I am used to things being a certain way, including music. I expect certain sounds and chords from Rock, others from the Blues.
Jazz can be so complex, I am just beginning to be able to understand why I like some of it and am totally unmoved by others. That Levine book gave me some help. When I get time, I going to carefully read through that review Johnny P. recommended and see what it is the book is doing that is so "sinful."
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Jazz is like any other genre in terms of having it's own sound. Once you acclimate your ears to it much of the mystery vanishes. A lot of players make the mistake , IMO, of over complicating things especially when something is not completely understood. It is human nature. Many times the simplest answer IS the answer. Like so many things in music there are always several answers and even more roads that lead there.
Patience.
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I will obey, Sensei (but I just don't think I will ever like a lot of the modern stuff, at least not anytime soon, there is way too much good "old" stuff from the 40's, 50's, and 60's to keep me occupied for many years).
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Hey brother, it's all good. No one says you have to like anything that does not sound good to you. Our palate can change overtime, but if it does not, who cares!
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Originally Posted by AlsoRan
Originally Posted by AlsoRan
Originally Posted by AlsoRan
AFAIK, the whole idea of the "lydian" raised 4th comes from George Russell's "Lydian Chromatic Concept", which posited lydian as the most stable scale, and therefore a suitable (new) foundation for harmonic theory, and which supposedly influenced "modal jazz" pioneers like Miles Davis and John Coltrane. But don't quote me on that .
(Personally I think the LCC as a whole is debatable at best, but that's another thread...
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Originally Posted by Sphere
Originally Posted by Sphere
In particular the dissonance of the tritone is not only "good" but "crucial" in the context of a dom7, dim7 or half-dim chord. It's "bad", therefore, in any chord with a different function, particularly a tonic major, where it just confuses the harmony.
The minor 2nd is a perfectly acceptable dissonance in other contexts. A common piano voicing for a maj7 is 5-7-1-3, and a minor 9th chord could have the 9th a half-step below the m3 - quite an attractive sound.
It's the minor 9th interval - adding an octave between the notes - that creates a dissonance that is bad in almost any context. (The intriguing exception being the 7b9 chord.)
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Originally Posted by JonR
Originally Posted by JonR
Originally Posted by JonR
I thought maybe by going to the mode he was going to harmonize it and come up with a chord substitution or something. That and sharping the 4 at least would give two things between which to establish a relation. Otherwise what's the point?Last edited by Ron Stern; 01-06-2012 at 02:44 PM.
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Originally Posted by AlsoRan
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Originally Posted by Sphere
Yes but did he know he was changing keys?
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Originally Posted by brwnhornet59
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Originally Posted by AlsoRan
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Originally Posted by Ron Stern
I am not seeing much productive coming from this anymore. Pick up Bert Ligon's book and see if that one grabs you. It is more of the favorite anyway.
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Originally Posted by brwnhornet59
The criticisms of Levine are either valid, or not. By virtue of the influence of the book it becomes an issue in the world of music that cannot be ignored without great cost.
People have a perfect right to believe him even if they can't state coherently what it is they believe. I can't just nod and say, uh huh, because that would be a lie.
If the criticisms of Levine are valid, then his influence is retarding the progress of music theory and possibly contributing to the demise of jazz, a crime against humanity for God's sake, and for what? So he can make a few bucks?
Moffa Mithra
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