Is Music Theory Useless?

[guitarplayer007]

Thats how Jimmy Bruno Teaches, he does'nt care about theory, only sound. He says the theory comes after the music not before
Ken

[oilywrag]

Maths, blues and a good ear..Cosmic your a star..

[eddy b.]

In my little concept of this vast musical universe I believe music to be a language. I relate music theory to english grammar. Knowledge or lack of knowledge of grammar dosn't keep a four year old from expressing himself very clearly. The part of my brain that learned english by listening to my Mom and Pops speak it is the same part of my brain that I use when I learn Barney Kessel solo's. Knowing music theory, or english grammar in and of itself dosn't necessarily lend itself to creating art. I think to create art I have to be interested in "expressing my self" as opposed to "impressing you". I enjoy knowing music theory, it makes me feel smart and it is nice to be able to articulate some of the why's beyond ...because it sounds good... And at the same time I find it tedious when through Schenkerian analysis beautiful music is explained as though it were rocket science...you know TOO difficult for Regular people to understand or appreciate. In the end I guess there is a balance...I'm a better player now that I am not thinking about the theory when I improvise...

[JonnyPac]

I heard about a great piano player, his name was George Shearing I think. Somebody told me he never even LOOKED at a theory book.

He didn't LOOK at much being born blind. LOL He was a great pianist though.

***

Of course I am pro-theory and big into seeing that it gets tested and applied by the student (self included).

I'm glad someone brought up Hal Galper- he might not discuss "jazz theory" like Mark Levine, Robert Rawlins, or Bert Ligon, but he really has a "theory" of how to apply theory and the mind/brain/hands. Rhythm and phrasing is a HUGE part of harmony and melody. "Theory" (regarding chords and scales) does not work in a static no-time hypothetical environment because it doesn't exist in real music. If you turn away from theory because you need no labels and trust your (trained or untrained) ear, you may find yourself at a disadvantage. Perhaps buckling down and seeing your theory through to a masterful creative delivery is a good plan. Thoroughgoing applied theory that works without strain in real-time is an asset, period.

[whatswisdom]

It's just some basic rhythmic and harmonic logic that allows you to make it as complicated sounding as you want.

It's all about the b9, man. It ain't nothin' but the b9. Bird & Diz discovered it and invented modern jazz. My next licence plate will be a customized FLAT9.

[pingu]

If you learn a song do you ........
a) learn it in all 12 keys
or b) learn how it functions so you can transpose it

If you've got monster ears you could prob just do a)
quite quickly
I haven't got monster ears dammit

I think theory (intellect) takes over to help out where the ears stop

A few years ago when I was starting to learn standards and
jazzing I was asking a freind and much more advanced (sax)
player what to do on some change in a song

The way he thought about it and described what he was
doing was all notes ( F F# etc)
no functional harmony (the V chord going to the I etc)

After a coup[le more questions
I realised I knew more theory than him but
he could blow me into a cocked hat
After that I eased up on the theory and started learning tunes !

So I'm agreeing , only get as much theory as you need / can handle

The tunes themselves and your EARS are generally the answer

[JonnyPac]

This thread may be of interest of some of you. Opinions welcome!

https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/theor...wn-design.html

[Nikkorico_03]

Instead of making excuses of why not to use/learn theory, why don't we discuss the downsides of learning theory? I'd rather not hear a response like "It wasted 2 years of my life" or something along those lines.

I see no downside to theory whatsoever. I can't think of something to compare it to, but you definitely gain knowledge of many new areas of music. And another thing to add to your resume

[backliner]

In my little concept of this vast musical universe I believe music to be a language. I relate music theory to english grammar. Knowledge or lack of knowledge of grammar dosn't keep a four year old from expressing himself very clearly. The part of my brain that learned english by listening to my Mom and Pops speak it is the same part of my brain that I use when I learn Barney Kessel solo's. Knowing music theory, or english grammar in and of itself dosn't necessarily lend itself to creating art. I think to create art I have to be interested in "expressing my self" as opposed to "impressing you". I enjoy knowing music theory, it makes me feel smart and it is nice to be able to articulate some of the why's beyond ...because it sounds good... And at the same time I find it tedious when through Schenkerian analysis beautiful music is explained as though it were rocket science...you know TOO difficult for Regular people to understand or appreciate. In the end I guess there is a balance...I'm a better player now that I am not thinking about the theory when I improvise...

I like this.

I've heard it said that you only need enough technique to say what you want to say.

I thinkm it may apply equally to theory as well.

I hated grammer in Junior High, but always loved English and writing. So once I understood some basics, i wasn't struggling with grammer so much as trying to understand what made some writers so good, and that went beyond grammer, though grammer was of course "correct" (except when they were knowledgably breaking the rules for effect, sorta like Be-Boppers).

In the final analysis (for me) it came down to learning the craft (left brain concepts like theory, technique, and "grammer"), then trying to transcend that knowledge and get some right brain creativity and "art" happening at the same time.

Like the joke goes:
Dude plays all kinds of crazy stuff until they stop him and say, "What are you DOING, man?"

"I just play what I FEEL!"

"Well FEEL something in Bb!"

[Nikkorico_03]

I like this.



I hated grammer in Junior High... though grammer was of course "correct" (except when they were knowledgably breaking the rules for effect, sorta like Be-Boppers).

In the final analysis ( it came down to learning the craft (left brain concepts like theory, technique, and "grammer"),

Hm...I believe it's spelled "grammar" and not "grammer." Could that be why you hated "grammer," because you couldn't spell it? Hahha just messing with you!

[Greco]

Like the joke goes:
Dude plays all kinds of crazy stuff until they stop him and say, "What are you DOING, man?"

"I just play what I FEEL!"

"Well FEEL something in Bb!"

Thanks for this laugh to start my day. I had never heard this joke.

Cheers

Dave

[backliner]

Hm...I believe it's spelled "grammar" and not "grammer." Could that be why you hated "grammer," because you couldn't spell it? Hahha just messing with you!

Oh jeez.

10 years of College wasted!


Junior College, but still...

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I've been thinking and I know I've heard of No Mo before:

[ronjazz]

Good knowledge of music theory, especially modern harmonic movement, will never hurt you, ever. And, it will make it much easier to play as a sideman if the common language is understood. As a leader, I won't hire players with whom I can't communicate efficiently. There is a remarkably tiny number of great jazz artists who have no theoretical training.

[aniss1001]

I never got this anti-theory thing. A lot of people seem to think that theory is something that complicates things. To me it is the exact opposite. It simplyfies something that is otherwise extremely complicated and difficult to get a grasp on.

To me theory helps me understand what is going on, it guides my hear, it gives me ideas of what and how to practice, it allows me to comunicate with other. Extremely useful!

For instance how many solos would you have to transcribe to figure out that in specific harmonic situations people often play certain notes. Eg. the altered scale. I could have figured that out somehow, but given that I read some theory I didn't have to. And once I read it I started listening for it in solos and playing with the scale getting the sound into my fingers/ears/head.

I get in if you're playing rock/blues/pop/funk etc. It's so simple that theory doesn't seem that useful to me. Actually the best players (Hendrix, Santana, etc.) usually know little or no theory. But when talking jazz I think you're just making life more complicated for yourself by not learning a good deal of theory

[brwnhornet59]

I never got this anti-theory thing. A lot of people seem to think that theory is something that complicates things. To me it is the exact opposite. It simplyfies something that is otherwise extremely complicated and difficult to get a grasp on.

To me theory helps me understand what is going on, it guides my hear, it gives me ideas of what and how to practice, it allows me to comunicate with other. Extremely useful!

I think the guys that complain the most are the ones who have glissed the surface, yet never figured out how to apply it, maybe don't even know their fretboard and scales well. I do not mean this to be mean, it is just an observation. You have to walk before you run. Theory is just another step in understanding this vast universe we call music. IMHO

[TH]

I think the guys that complain the most are the ones who have glissed the surface...

It's simple economics:
Whine= 2 calories expended.
Practice, assimilate, apply, coordinate, appreciate, practice and repeat= >8,000,000 calories.
No brainer. Why don't you guys just let me whine and we'll see who hasn't broken a sweat at the end of the day, eh?
David

[Nuff Said]

Knowledge is one thing, being able to apply it is another.
Only if you can apply Knowledge do others appreciate it.

[Silence]

"You know you're on a guitar forum when......."

[AmundLauritzen]

It's simple economics:
Whine= 2 calories expended.
Practice, assimilate, apply, coordinate, appreciate, practice and repeat= >8,000,000 calories.
No brainer. Why don't you guys just let me whine and we'll see who hasn't broken a sweat at the end of the day, eh?
David

Priceless!
Come to think of it, I seem to be leaner when I have good guitar chops but fatter when I have too much pork chops.
Calories in, calories out.

[jasonc]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned arranging. How are you going to arrange some music if you don't know how it works or how to describe it to other musicians? If you have to write out a part for some horn players, what are you going to do? Tell them "Yeah man, after that one ooh bah dee bop section then we all play this Jimi Hendrix sounding chord thing.....no the other one..." Now I'm not saying you have to be able to score a whole big band but you have to know something just to arrange relatively simple things. I second what ronjazz said about not wanting to work with players that can't communicate on the band stand or even in rehearsals. Also, I've read enough biographies of great jazz musicians to know that most of them knew plenty about theory. Bird, Diz and Miles KNEW what they were doing they weren't just pulling it out of the ether.

[brwnhornet59]

"Yeah man, after that one ooh bah dee bop section then we all play this Jimi Hendrix sounding chord thing.....no the other one..."

You mean there is more than one Hendrix sounding chord thing? Man I better start hitting the open mics again. I must live in a bubble. I bet I can find a weekend warrior that can straighten me out.

[AlsoRan]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned arranging. How are you going to arrange some music if you don't know how it works or how to describe it to other musicians? If you have to write out a part for some horn players, what are you going to do? Tell them "Yeah man, after that one ooh bah dee bop section then we all play this Jimi Hendrix sounding chord thing.....no the other one..." Now I'm not saying you have to be able to score a whole big band but you have to know something just to arrange relatively simple things. I second what ronjazz said about not wanting to work with players that can't communicate on the band stand or even in rehearsals. Also, I've read enough biographies of great jazz musicians to know that most of them knew plenty about theory. Bird, Diz and Miles KNEW what they were doing they weren't just pulling it out of the ether.

Ah, but the man or woman's original point is that he just wants to play right now. He is not into arranging or composing. He is choosing to follow the example of those guitarists that just learned by playing and memorizing.

I met a guy in a Guitar Center who was playing some great Jazz, chord melody / solo guitar type. When my friend and I spoke with him, we were astonished to hear that he could not tell us what key he was in or anything about theory. Note: he conducted himself as a gentleman and did not get defensive, he was actually apologetic.

But I noticed he could transpose and if you hummed a note, he would locate it and then play in that key.

My guess is that to learn this way, you need to have plenty of time on your hands (which many adults don't have) and be blessed with the special aptitude to learn and retain.

I'll stick with theory.

[TH]

I met a guy in a Guitar Center who was playing some great Jazz, chord melody / solo guitar type. When my friend and I spoke with him, we were astonished to hear that he could not tell us what key he was in or anything about theory.

I know! Yeah, there are people that do have this NATURAL ability, to take what they know and build on it, by their own talents and ears. I think natural ability is a gift and offers the recipient a source of enjoyment not readily available to most. He would and might be able to expand his own world indefinitely by his ears, but to someone like that theory is an option that opens doors. For many others, it's a foundation and a steady companion to one's imagination.

Who knows? Maybe the original poster was that person in Guitar Center. I'll bet he was happy. He obviously knew what key he was in but it might have been the key of "5th string 8th fret". Was it an open key? Would he know the hidden alternative sounds that would have opened up had he changed harmonic choice, or the threshold of familiarity?

Too, a lot of classical players have a similar relationship with the instrument, apparent limitless talent and beauty within the realm of a finite set of pieces. Many performers of written compositions would not easily be able to say why an accidental appeared here or there, but the theoretical insight of the composer provided it. It would have been great to find out just HOW he gets around. A blind man can get around a room, but he just "sees" things differently.

Yeah, my theory is what lets me really shake things up and not fall apart. I wouldn't turn down a gift of natural talent though.
David

[ronjazz]

The arranging idea is a great point, without question, and the ability to notate is also very helpful in teaching. From my personal point of view, I play by ear a great deal of the time, and my theoretical studies help me greatly in that regard. Having the ability to play by ear with no formal musical knowledge is a fine talent, but learning some theory will only improve on that gift.