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Are there certain intervals that are pretty much always categorized as being "dissonant." For instance, a b7 does not sound too good played over a chord a chord with a major 7th. Can you suggest some other intervals that pretty much never sound good when played at the same time for certain length of time.
Note I am aware that over a given chord, you can play outside notes and some REALLY outside notes as long as you play them swiftly and don't dilly dally or linger too long.
Also, as you have taught me, there are no real rules in Jazz, but I am asking this according to traditionally accepted practices. Thanks.
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12-03-2011 11:06 PM
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Intervals are different than the way any given note sounds against any given chord. That's harmony.
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You are right. Merritt.
I need to modify the question.
Are there any two notes, a given interval apart, that are considered dissonant? For example, a minor second interval?
(I finally have time to play my guitar and am going to try them all right now to see if I can answer my own question!)
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Minor 2nds and diminished 5ths (tritone) are the only intervals that ever sounded really dissonant to me. Actually, even a major 7th has a dissonant sound as well, when played without a 3rd or 5th. I've never been schooled in classical theory, so I can't speak for any textbook answers, but I can use my ears!
Here's a more formal Wiki on the subject:
Consonance and Dissonance - Wikipedia
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IMO the most dissonant interval is the minor 9th. So, like C up to Db it really only works if its between the root and b9 of a dominant, it pretty much all other cases, it sounds like ass. Again, just my opinion.
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even that...I think there are some really pretty uses of a m9 interval. Certain inversions of maj7 or m9 chords are pleasing to me in a 'modern' sense:
Originally Posted by timscarey
4
5
4
4
6
0
3
3
2
4
2
0
completely subjective though.
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As timscarey says, the minor 9th is the one interval that is considered most dissonant, most of the time (except in a 7b9 chord). Not just his opinion, but conventional jazz opinion
. Any time you see the concept "avoid note", you can bet they're talking about a minor 9th interval. (Ie, it's always a half-step above a chord tone, with the implication that it could or would have an octave between.)
The minor 2nd might seem dissonant, but in fact it can sound perfectly good in certain contexts - eg, between 2nd and 3rd of a m9 chord, or m(add9).
Eg in these voicings:
Emadd9
-0-
-0-
-0-
-4-
-2-
-0-
Am9
-0-
-0-
-5-
-5-
-0-
-0-
To be more precise, perhaps, there is clearly dissonance there, but not an unpleasant one. IE, it's useful to make a distinction between nice dissonance and nasty dissonance. (Maybe call the latter "discord", although that's still an arbitrary distinction.)
Pianists, too, might often voice maj7 chords as 5-7-R-3, with the half-step in the middle (and of course that's a good voicing for a rootless m9 chord.). But they would not put the root an octave higher, to form a b9 with the 7th.
Jazz uses all kinds of "nice" dissonance that classical ears might find "nasty" - or at least confusing. Eg ending a song on a maj7 sounds "unfinished" to classical ears. To jazz ears, does it sound "finished"? Or do we just like that "unfinished" sound?
(Likewise there might be many advanced classical harmonies that sound "nasty" to jazz ears.)
As merritt stone says, context is all when it comes to most dissonances. The tritone and maj7 are pretty stark on their own. But in the context of the right chord, both are quite acceptable, even smooth.
The tritone in a dom7 chord remains a significant dissonance, but it's a functional one: ie it's OK because it sounds familiar and we know what it's for, where it's going (how it's going to resolve). Similarly (for possibly different functional reasons) in a m7b5 or dim7 chord.
The maj7, meanwhile, is softened considerably by forming strong consonant intervals with 3rd and 5th in a maj7 chord; they take the sting out of the interval it makes with the root.
We get a maj7 between the 3rd and #9 in a 7#9 chord - a different kind of dissonance, but acceptable because it's a blues sound (at least in a tonic chord). As V7 chord in a minor key, its tension becomes (again) acceptable because of a clear functional purpose.Last edited by JonR; 12-04-2011 at 10:51 AM.
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Don't confuse "dissonant" with "bad." Its more useful to think:
dissonant = tense
consonant = relaxed
In terms of intervals, octaves, fifths, and thirds (and their inversions) are more on the consonant side, while seconds and tritones are on the dissonant side. Again, sometimes you want that tension, and these intervals sound "dissonant" but "right" in that situation.
As others have pointed out above, a bare major 7th or minor 9th sound very dissonant, even "harsh", but in the context of certain chords (Ima7 or Vb9) these intervals find a satisfying context. In other contexts they would sound "outside" or out of place. The same is true with tritones.
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Sure they would, just not as often, and generally at a point probably to create a certain effect. Originally Posted by JonR
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OK, but as part of a chord voicing, it's still generally considered an "avoid note", yes? That's my point here. Originally Posted by JakeAcci
All kinds of dissonance (even the nastiest) are available as effects.
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My point exactly. The issue then is "How tense is too tense?" (in any particular context). Originally Posted by cmajor9
Or indeed "how relaxed is too relaxed"
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Although it is necessary to use discretion and understanding to make effective use of certain intervallic colors, in my opinion it is important to know the sound of every intervals individually and in as many harmonic contexts as possible. Never avoid learning a sound just because it might present problems.
Every interval is used in music.
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You guys have done it again. Thanks for sharing.
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Dorian b9 is a common melodic minor application. You can also use the #11/b5 on m7. But as stated, how consonant or dissonant something sounds has a lot to do with what you play before and after.
Another cool sound is to use the m6th in conjunction with the m3rd on minor chords. It creates a dissonant tritone.
Also, the major 3rd can sound really cool on minor chords when used in a confident and appropriate way.
The hardest interval to make music out of is the #7th on dominant chords IMO. I've heard some players make this interval sound great in that context, and I'm not talking about using it as a passing tone as in a bebop dominant scale. It can be used in a wider intervallic way. When you establish a wide intervallic sound, you can throw in a lot of "illegal notes" because of the organized chaos(the intervallic structure makes a cohesiveness).
Pat Martino does some octave displacement of the chromatic scale. That would be going up a m9th for each step C to C# then down to D and up a m9th to D# and so on. Another way of organizing chaos.
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There's an interesting article on Intervals by Ted Greene on his website.
TedGreene.com - Teachings - Fundamentals
--Jay
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Thank you for this! Originally Posted by jayv999
It was really valuable to me - one man's (albeit a great man) view on intervals and dissonance.
What really hit home was his reiteration of what was already written earlier in the thread - dissonance is not always "ugly," or offensive. It can be just restless or incomplete.
Good find!
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The tritone is such an evil dissonance it is called "Diabolus in Musica".
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Awesome tat', dood! Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
The tritone is such an evil dissonance it is called "Diabolus in Musica".
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Exactly. Originally Posted by bako
The statement "b9 intervals are typically only used in contexts X, Y, and Z" is useful as a point about history and stylistic tendencies, but learning to hear each voice of various voicings and voice-led progressions is directly useful in making harmonic decisions when composing or improvising.
I think one of the worst things that occasionally happens in musical education is spreading an idea that a certain sound should always be avoided, or even treated with more caution than another sound. Innovations are made by hearing things in new ways.
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Correction, "was". About 1000 years ago, roughly. And they didn't think it was literally evil even then. Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
The tritone is such an evil dissonance it is called "Diabolus in Musica".
(Of course, it's still fun - if you like that kind of thing - to imagine it might be.)
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I agree with Tim 100% here. I can't believe how teachers push drop-2 maj 7th chords with the M7 on the bottom and the root on top- It sounds like ass, IMHO. Originally Posted by timscarey
I even dig inverting dom7b9 chords so the root is above the b9. Set against the bassist, the dissonance is de-emphasided. Here's a wickedly awesome E7b9 voicing set up that way:
-12--------------------------------------------
-9--------------------------------------------
-11--------------------------------------------
-9--------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
-(0)--------------------------------------------
Last edited by JonnyPac; 12-07-2011 at 08:35 PM.
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common sequence
C-------------CMa7--------C7-------------FMa7--------Fm6-----------Cadd9
C-E-G-C-----B-E-G-C-----Bb-E-G-C-----A-E-F-C-----Ab-D-F-C------G-D-E-C
lydian C Major Vamp
CMa9#11-----CMa7--------CMa6/9-------CMa7
D-F#-G-C-----B-E-G-C-----A-D-G-C-----B-E-G-C
upward chromatic sequence using triad over bass chords
B/C--------------C/B----------Db+/Bb--------D/Eb------------Eb/Ab-----------C/Db----------C#/B
C-D#-F#-B-----B-E-G-C-----Bb-F-A-Db-----Eb-F#-A-D-----Ab-G-Bb-Eb-----Db-G-C-E-----B-G#-C#-E#
Fear no interval.
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Those make sense, of course. I'd actually drop the C on top though.
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I think Monk liked the major 7th chord with the 7th under the root, but that's Monk.
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I was going to mention Monk. He did like those minor 2nds, anywhere he could get them. As I mentioned, it's a pretty common maj7 piano voicing - now - to put the maj7 right next to the root (in the right hand anyway): eg 5-7-1-3. Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
Not sure whether even Monk would have liked the maj7 a b9 below the root though...
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