"Dissonant" Intervals?

[JakeAcci]

All right, I don't think I'm getting through here...

[brwnhornet59]

I am with you Jake!

[JakeAcci]

Probably just a language/wording thing. All good, moving on...

[AlsoRan]

Probably just a language/wording thing. All good, moving on...

I understand where Mr. Nuff Said is coming from.

It's all about deviating from a perceived tradition or norm, and that deviation becoming the new norm or a variant of it.

While music takes all sorts of shapes and forms, many people have a general idea of what makes jazz Jazz in each era. Playing a minor scale over a Dom7 in 2-5-1 as Wes did, in many folk's minds, was just not the norm at that time for Jazz, although that type of playing obviously existed and thrived.

I would compare that to the norm of not having a violin in a Heavy Metal band. Sure there are bands that do it (especially over in the Scandinavian lands), but in my mind it has not been an accepted norm.

Maybe in your mind, Jazz artists have always played a big helping of those "wrong notes." Maybe but most Jazz traditionalists, if I may use that term, never noticed.

Everyone has ideas on "that's not how they did it." Sometimes that person just was not exposed to enough people that "did do it that way" to know any better.

I don't know. From all I have listened to, I definitely notice when someone starts playing "outside" notes, and it takes me out of the state of how I enjoy music and into thinking, "what is this guy doing?- Hey! Hey!...Quit messing around with the song!"

And as with many things, over time humans can get used to many styles of Jazz or music in general. One can also get used to existing on half one's income, but I would rather not.

I realize we all need to grow, so maybe if I play Jazz long enough, I will want to venture more into the lesser used "outside" notes of a given harmony. But for now, I like my music a certain way, and don't be puttin' horseradish in my peach cobbler! Save it for my brautwerst!

I am off the podium.

[JakeAcci]

I'm neither advocating nor admonishing the use of "dissonance" - I'm merely saying that what is dissonant is subjective to each listener, culture, time, etc.

You claim to dislike 'outside' sounds, but if you are a jazz fan you have much greater tolerance for dissonance than some people in some times - the major seventh chord used to be thought of as needing resolution, and many listeners still hear it that way. They are surely not jazz fans...yet.

'Outside' is purely subjective. To be redundant, what is 'inside' to you - completely conventional and acceptable - may be very dissonant to some, or even many.

[AlsoRan]

I'm neither advocating nor admonishing the use of "dissonance" - I'm merely saying that what is dissonant is subjective to each listener, culture, time, etc.

You claim to dislike 'outside' sounds, but if you are a jazz fan you have much greater tolerance for dissonance than some people in some times - the major seventh chord used to be thought of as needing resolution, and many listeners still hear it that way. They are surely not jazz fans...yet.

'Outside' is purely subjective. To be redundant, what is 'inside' to you - completely conventional and acceptable - may be very dissonant to some, or even many.

Ha! Ha! Point taken.

I wish you, and a few other guys I can name on the forum, were my neighbor.

[Nuff Said]

Human conditioning

Are we conditioning ourselves to like new sounds?

Watch and wonder.

Enjoy
Nuff

[AlsoRan]

Human conditioning

Are we conditioning ourselves to like new sounds?

Watch and wonder.

Enjoy
Nuff

Wow.

Kind of like us getting conditioned to accept more and more blood and gore in the movies? Things that we may naturally abhor we learned to accept and maybe even enjoy the "uncomfortable" response it elicits? Kind of like learning to enjoy pain? Is beauty in music and life real or just what we make of it? Does everyone seek beauty in music or do some seek darkness? If so, what part of their psyche are they feeding/healing?
Can darkness be found in Jazz music?

Just some random thoughts on the subject.

One of the forum members mentioned a Leonard Bernstein DVD in which he has a long speech on "dissonance" and its relevancy to the mental state of a society. It is around 65.00 bucks. Might be an interesting buy. But, I don't think I want to know what inside a person that makes them enjoy songs about murder, rape, and insanity (as is in a lot of songs by groups like Slayer, Exodus, etc.. ).

Time to get some coffee.

[JakeAcci]

That's a very interesting (and mildly upsetting) video.

What does it have to do with our discussion?

[Nuff Said]

What does it have to do with our discussion?

Human conditioning is based on the premise that the human perspective is influenced from birth by parental, society, religious and all other interactions. Consequently, all that we experience is filtered through and measured by our past experiences.

Therefore, it does not require too great of a stretch to understand why each individuals responsiveness to music may vary from person to person. If I have to put it simply, each life experience is different for each of us and though we experience many similarities, the responsiveness to music remains uniquely individualistic.

Nuff Said

[JakeAcci]

Human conditioning is based on the premise that the human perspective is influenced from birth by parental, society, religious and all other interactions. Consequently, all that we experience is filtered through and measured by our past experiences.

Therefore, it does not require too great of a stretch to understand why each individuals responsiveness to music may vary from person to person. If I have to put it simply, each life experience is different for each of us and though we experience many similarities, the responsiveness to music remains uniquely individualistic.

Nuff Said

Right, I agree completely, but that's what I have been saying all along. Music is experienced differently by different people.

You wrote "If you play a wrong note and don't resolve the tension that is created, it sounds like you don't know how to play."

subjective terms:
"wrong note"
"resolve"
"tension"
and 'sounds like you don't know how to play' refers to the perspective of the listener, which will vary from listener to listener.

[Nuff Said]

Right, I agree completely, but that's what I have been saying all along. Music is experienced differently by different people.

You wrote "If you play a wrong note and don't resolve the tension that is created, it sounds like you don't know how to play."

subjective terms:
"wrong note"
"resolve"
"tension"
and 'sounds like you don't know how to play' refers to the perspective of the listener, which will vary from listener to listener.

Exactly, each individual's response to music varies from person to person, so personally I would try to resolve the note.

I'm glad we agree.
eNuff

A bit of background reading for you............

A Wrong Note? By MOnk Rowe

"Javon Jackson said there is no such thing as a wrong note, he went on to say that even playing a C sharp over a C chord can be made to work. It depends on where you place it in the phrase, if you leave it hanging out there at the end of a phrase it more likely will sound incorrect than if you resolve it with a certain intent. We must admit though, that Javon Jackson’s C sharp will sound less questionable than a timid junior high player playing a C sharp over a C chord. The tone, the intent, and the confidence all make a difference in how we perceive what people play.

Joe Magnarelli, hard bop trumpeter of some renown, had this to say about the question of right and wrong notes:

JM: I think a wrong note is when you give up on that note. When you give up on it then it’s wrong but, because there’s no wrong notes, really, there’s no wrong notes. You can make any note valid on any chord. I mean think about it. If you have a G major chord and you play an A flat, depending on how you resolve that A flat, it could be a beautiful thing. Now if you go back to study classical music you’ll find things like that all over the place. And I think being sure of yourself and having faith in yourself to play something that doesn’t sound good and then play your way out of it. I mean I have done that. I played something I like and I’ll think to myself in that split second, wow, what was that, you know? And then I just play it again and develop that thing and bring it back into the solo, that’s the key. But if you play something and you make a face or you musically give up on it, then it’s wrong.

Tenor saxophonist Ralph LaLama (of the same generation as Joe Magnarelli and Javon Jackson) is very big on tension and release in his solos, and constantly improvises with that concept in mind. He was very succinct and thoughtful in his response to my question.

MR: In jazz improvisation, to you, what constitutes a wrong note?

RL: Well okay that’s a good question. It’s like beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, okay? I think there are wrong notes. A lot of people don’t. I do. I really do. Because you have a background, you have a chord, and then you could use all twelve notes but it’s how you organize them. You know what I mean? It’s the organization. Sometimes you might put a wrong note in a wrong part of the beat or something, and it sounds wrong. And I just get this tension up my spine. You know what I mean? But, then technically you can play a wrong note, technically meaning theoretically it could be a wrong note but it sounds right. You know, because of the placement. You know Thad Jones was the master of it. Coltrane too. Sonny Rollins, all those masters, Joe Henderson. As far as theoretically, in other words we have a chord, we have a scale and we have the chord tone. So if you play outside of that, it could be considered wrong. But if you know how to phrase it exactly right and resolve it right that’s another thing. It’s in the resolution. You can resolve a wrong note and make it right see. And then sometimes I know when I hit a wrong note, you know like I say I feel it up my spine.

What constitutes a wrong note certainly can be addressed and thought of in many ways. The style of music has a great deal to do with it. If you’re playing modal jazz and improvising on one chord at length, the tendency to play non-scale tones is certainly there and almost required, because your palette is limited. In this case I can embrace the “no wrong notes” philosophy. If an accomplished jazz musician is consistently playing notes chosen for a purpose, placing them in a phrase, in time, and with confidence. This goes double when they stray away and play outside the chord changes.

I think that all the musicians who addressed this question would say that if you play something by accident, take responsibility for it, account for it, and try to make it work. That’s part of what makes modern jazz sound different than classic jazz."


Miles Davis "It's not the note you play that's the wrong note - it's the note you play afterwards that makes it right or wrong."
Miles Davis "It's not the note you play that's the wrong note - it's the note you play afterwards that makes it right or wrong."

[AlsoRan]

My "bad" folks, I went off on a tangent without watching the video.

I thought the video was taking us in the direction of a person accepting uncommon or new chord/note combinations due to social factors such as wanting to fit into a group or psychological needs brought on by extreme emotional states (grief, anger, etc...). Turns out it was just showing how our environment can affect our reactions to certain stimuli, which we are to extrapolate to include sound/music.

I originally started the thread to try and figure out how I could play music that fits into the Jazz genre, and avoid notes that would sound "bad" and therefore make me look like I could not play.

I conclude from all this that I have to be true to myself and find my own "voice" and favorite soloing approaches, and that all notes are truly fair game, especially if I can play with confidence.

And, as someone else said, if everyone played it "safe" Bebop would have probably never been born along with all the other bops.

So consider me converted.

Now, let me go and find an Alan Holdsworth video to watch...