Min(Maj) 2-5-1 Progressions

[JonR]

Thanks again, gents! I am finally seeing how that min(Maj7) chord is customarily used. The voice leading spelled out what was happening with the various important notes such as the 7th.

So now, by all indications, it appears that Melodic Minor and Harmonic Minor 2-5-1 progressions ending on the tonic min(Major 7) are just plain not often utilized as often as much in the real world, although it is available.

'til next time...

Yes, "available" is the word. There's no hard and fast rules here. Just common practices and personal preferences.
It's always dangerous to try to discern rules from listening to a few recordings. Theorists listen to 100s, of course, but there's always grey areas, and always exceptions. The safest thing (if your plan is to learn to play a specific genre) is just to listen to as much of that style as you can, and pick up on anything that catches your ear - and work out what it is. Life is too short to learn everything! So follow your ear and your instinct.

Knowledge of a few theoretical ground rules is useful of course, so you can recognise things when you hear them. But don't be surprised when you hear music that breaks them!

[AlsoRan]

Wow!

You guys are on top of your game. I went to my Jazz instructional books and all but one advocate replacing the Min(Major7) chord with a Min 7 chord. A couple gave reasons for it, which were basically that it sounds too unstable to most people's ears.

You saved me a lot of practice time I would have wasted on a progression that is not often utilized.

I have to close by saying I am starting to come around to the sound of the chord, but only as some of your mentioned, as a passing chord to replace another minor type chord.

And I learned a new term, "Contrapuntal Elaboration of Static Harmony." Say that ten times quickly.
Jazz Arranging Tutorial: Contrapuntal Elaboration of Static Harmony
TermWiki

[JakeAcci]

You guys are on top of your game. I went to my Jazz instructional books and all but one advocate replacing the Min(Major7) chord with a Min 7 chord. A couple gave reasons for it, which were basically that it sounds too unstable to most people's ears.

You saved me a lot of practice time I would have wasted on a progression that is not often utilized.

Well...for me I think minmaj7 is a great sound, it is just specific. Tonic m7 can be a bit too 'bluesy' for me, sorry to be simplistic again.

When I have a tonic minor chord I usually think of it as m6 or minmaj7 unless if there is a b7 in the melody, or if it is kind of a groovy/bluesy tune like a Wes tune. This is a decision based on my observations through transcription.

But also it depends on what the soloist is doing, and of course I'll try to comp harmony that follows that...

To be honest I think you might have misunderstood something in those texts if you actually read an advocation of replacing any minmaj7 with m7. If I see minmaj7 on a lead sheet, I am definitely NOT playing a m7! It probably is on the sheet because of a M7 in the melody, so look out! Now, replacing a minmaj7 with a m6 is a different issue.

[JonR]

Wow!

You guys are on top of your game. I went to my Jazz instructional books and all but one advocate replacing the Min(Major7) chord with a Min 7 chord. A couple gave reasons for it, which were basically that it sounds too unstable to most people's ears.

I agree with Jake, you need to be careful with that. A min7 chord is not always a suitable replacement for a m(maj7).
Better choices would usually be m6, m69, or m(add9). Or just the plain triad! All of those are consistent with the melodic minor implication of m(maj7).
The reason is that a m(maj7) is usually functioning as a tonic. Min7 chords, OTOH, are usually functioning as non-tonic chords: iv in a minor key, or ii, vi or iii in major.
Naturally there are exceptions. Min7s will work well as tonics in some jazz tunes, often better than m(maj7).

Remember it's not a matter of whether you like the sound of the chord or not, in isolation. It's whether it's right for the piece you find it in, for the context.
You may still not like the chord even if it suits the context; that's OK, but consider the other melodic minor alternatives before going for min7.

[AlsoRan]

I can see what you mean about a tonic min7 chord being bluesy, since bluesmen use a lot of Dom7 chords. While the min 6 and min(maj7) are definitely more "jazzy."

I will take heed of your cautions and to make this more concrete, I am going to have to write out several progressions and track the voice leading as well as play it. That will be my next lesson to myself - "Understanding the minor chord progression that uses min6 or minMaj7 as a Tonic as opposed to the min7."

[brwnhornet59]

Well...for me I think minmaj7 is a great sound, it is just specific.

When I have a tonic minor chord I usually think of it as m6 or minmaj7 unless if there is a b7 in the melody, or if it is kind of a groovy/bluesy tune like a Wes tune. This is a decision based on my observations through transcription.

If I see minmaj7 on a lead sheet, I am definitely NOT playing a m7! It probably is on the sheet because of a M7 in the melody, so look out! Now, replacing a minmaj7 with a m6 is a different issue.

+1

[AlsoRan]

+1

That was one of the major points I got out of this thread. Since the min(Maj7) has a major 7th in it, you have to be careful not to play that b7 when you are improvising over the min(Maj7) chord. That half-step between the b7 and the major 7 is apparently very dissonant.

[JakeAcci]

AlsoRan, I also wanted to say: be careful not to get too theoretical - remember, the notes come before the theory, the theory is just an attempt (sometimes feeble!) to categorize and explain the notes that have already been played/composed.

The best insight you could get is to listen to the tunes already mentioned, listen to great players playing them and if you can try to transcribe some voicings or lines, that will be much more educational then the academic talk, really. That's so often the answer, and it's totally a pain in the ass compared to just having somebody tell you when to do x or not do x, but you'll be so much better off developing an ear for and internal sense of the difference between the functions of m7/minmaj7/m6 as well as the melodic distinctions between improvising (or writing a melody) with the 7 vs b7 vs 6. Countless tunes and recordings to check out - hop to it!

Honestly I haven't read that many theory books, and the exposure I've had to that type of literature has just helped me organize my thoughts and approach a bit and give me some vocabulary to discuss concepts with students and other musicians...I've come to understand things like minmaj7 - in a way that matters - via listening and copying.

[brwnhornet59]

Hey AlsoRan. The b7 is not a note that MUST be avoided when improvising, just treated with respect. You can throw it in very easily as a chromatic passing tone, 7 b7 6, with no ill effect. I do the same with the natural 7th when improving over minor 7. It creates interest when used tastefully.

Like Jake said, theory is only an attempt to organize note collections and their uses. While knowing theory and its uses is very important, IMO, there is no "right way". In the end it all come down to what you think, hear and feel. Obviously there are many wrong ways to play note tensions, as far as what sounds like crap, but in the end some of the best solo's I have ever heard broke all of the rules. In the hands of a good player/listener that has the technique to pull it off, everything is correct. Combine that with good rhythmic sensibilities and use of rests, the whole gamut is at their disposal. That is what I shoot for and hope to achieve.

[AlsoRan]

Like Jake said, theory is only an attempt to organize note collections and their uses. While knowing theory and its uses is very important, IMO, there is no "right way". In the end it all come down to what you think, hear and feel. Obviously there are many wrong ways to play note tensions, as far as what sounds like crap, but in the end some of the best solo's I have ever heard broke all of the rules. In the hands of a good player/listener that has the technique to pull it off, everything is correct. Combine that with good rhythmic sensibilities and use of rests, the whole gamut is at their disposal. That is what I shoot for and hope to achieve.

I can fully appreciate your thoughts on "wrong" notes and "avoid" notes, and I take them to heart. I just use the books to know what is probably "safe" territory, but I feel free to venture out as needed.

Thanks for taking the time to address my concerns. You did a good job of ascertaining where I was confused.

[cosmic gumbo]

I'm more confused than ever.

[AlsoRan]

I'm more confused than ever.

sorry if I caused you any confusion, but don't give up trying to assimilate this stuff.

I was only trying to figure out what to do with this "ugly" (my opinion) sounding chord, the "Minor Major Seventh Chord," when it is used as a "I" chord in a harmonic minor and melodic minor ii-V-I progressions.

I did not want to waste time precious time learning these progression all over the neck on a progression that had limited acceptance and use.

I could not find much written on this subject in my many instructional books so now I am going to have to use my ear and experiment with different substitute chords for it to plug into that "I" or tonic position.

Several substitute chords were suggested and I am going to try each one to see what works for me.

I was also cautioned that once I substitute different chords, I must be careful what notes I play when I solo to make sure they "fit" the chord, again using my ears for final validation or rejection.

Keep slugging away my friend and enjoy the ride.

[JonR]

I can see what you mean about a tonic min7 chord being bluesy, since bluesmen use a lot of Dom7 chords. While the min 6 and min(maj7) are definitely more "jazzy."

I will take heed of your cautions and to make this more concrete, I am going to have to write out several progressions and track the voice leading as well as play it. That will be my next lesson to myself - "Understanding the minor chord progression that uses min6 or minMaj7 as a Tonic as opposed to the min7."

Good idea. A lot of this is simply getting used to the language, the vocabulary of the music - and doing it by ear.

Like any genre of music, jazz has an overall sound, an accent, like a dialect of a language - we know it when we hear it. But if we're not experienced in playing it, we need to identify and get used to the details of the language. Eg, we may come from a rock or blues background (I come from a mix of blues, folk and rock myself), so we're familiar with that language - eg, the flattened 7th on a tonic. (Which would be a very strange accent to someone coming from classical .)

It's like joining any new social group: fitting in with how they speak, as well as what they talk about. (We don't relinquish personal identity - but we do want to all get on and understand each other.)

Coming from any non-jazz background, we can also perceive a jazz attitude. This is based around improvisation - the whole idea that a piece of music is not a finished work to be faithfully reproduced each time, but only a sketch pad to start from, to be filled in different each time. Not only that, but the idea that "less is more" - that a lot is done by nods and winks. Chords don't need to be stated in full: guide tones (3rds and 7ths) may be enough. Everybody knows "how things go", broadly; they don't need to be spelled out (that's not "cool").
In this sense, jazz language is like a street slang. A gang may talk among themselves in what seem to be little more than grunts, odd syllables. But they all know what they mean, even if we don't.
Imagine writing a book of theory on street slang! (I know it's been done...) It wouldn't really capture the vibe at all. And if you tried to apply it from the book, you'd probably get it totally wrong, or find it was already out of date.
Only the ear - listening and copying, maybe taking notes to help you remember things - can get you there.

[JakeAcci]

In this sense, jazz language is like a street slang. A gang may talk among themselves in what seem to be little more than grunts, odd syllables. But they all know what they mean, even if we don't.
Imagine writing a book of theory on street slang! (I know it's been done...) It wouldn't really capture the vibe at all. And if you tried to apply it from the book, you'd probably get it totally wrong, or find it was already out of date.
Only the ear - listening and copying, maybe taking notes to help you remember things - can get you there.

This may all be technically true, but such a hilariously square analogy. I agree with your sentiment, but felt it would be the right thing to do to poke a little fun at you here.

"You know, it's like living in 'the hood'!"

[brwnhornet59]

Coming from any non-jazz background, we can also perceive a jazz attitude. This is based around improvisation - the whole idea that a piece of music is not a finished work to be faithfully reproduced each time, but only a sketch pad to start from, to be filled in different each time. Not only that, but the idea that "less is more" - that a lot is done by nods and winks. Chords don't need to be stated in full: guide tones (3rds and 7ths) may be enough.

Only the ear - listening and copying, maybe taking notes to help you remember things - can get you there.

Great reflections!!

[JonR]

This may all be technically true, but such a hilariously square analogy. I agree with your sentiment, but felt it would be the right thing to do to poke a little fun at you here.

"You know, it's like living in 'the hood'!"

Well, of course it's square! I'm a white middle class English chap, don't you know! As far as I'm aware, I've never been in a "'hood".
I get self-conscious enough playing blues (what am I DOING?? ). (I don't know how Clapton lives with himself. Eric, you're not Robert Johnson! Go back home to Surrey...)

[AlsoRan]

Well, of course it's square! I'm a white middle class English chap, don't you know! As far as I'm aware, I've never been in a "'hood".

I have to ask. How is the Jazz scene in your local area? Are there many live shows? If so, are they only on certain nights?

Thanks, Jon.