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Originally Posted by Jonah
Originally Posted by Jonah
Figured bass is only roughly analogous to chord symbols. As you say, when a certain notation is chosen in figured bass, that indicated the "necessity" of a certain voicing. Chord symbols are a lot more loose about that. A dominant 13 chord doesn't mean the bass player cannot emphasize the 6th in the bass line or the the accompanying instrument will have to play a certain voicing of the dominant. To most jazz musicians that just means "unaltered" dominant. That doesn't even mean they won't see fit to play altered dominant or a tritone if it's resolving.
To many, chord symbols encode chord scales. Dom b913 would be half-whole diminished, Dom 9 #5 whole tone, Dom #4 Lydian dominant etc. Again this is still very different than the figured bass that the notation is not saying how you vertically order the notes in your voicings but what tension notes should (or can) be included in your voicings. You can put tension notes in the bass too.Last edited by Tal_175; 02-25-2021 at 08:08 AM.
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02-25-2021 07:39 AM
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The piano players in the tradition that Barry Harris represents, for example, do not think of extensions as doubled (or not doubled) notes above an octave. They think of them as borrowed notes from the related diminished chords. Borrowing happens horizontally, not vertically. Any inversion of the chords could be played. That means color notes can be in the bass, tenor, alto or soprano. Again, there is no implication that the color notes go to the octave above the other notes.
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So for someone wanting to really explore the world of chords/voicings, is there a book/resource recommendation? I've heard an awful lot about "the Mickey Baker book" over the years....
And not just a resource showing how to build them (this thread does that), but does at least some explanation on WHERE/HOW you might use them?
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Originally Posted by ruger9
the baker book #1 is a very basic intro into jazz..he starts with 26 chords IIRC..and uses them to introduce progressions and exercises...its not a explanation of " why is it called a 13 chord.." the Greene site will breakdown the notes in a chord and give you several ways to play it..including the chords inversions..and he does this in many keys and positions on the neck..check the "lessons" section
he also has several books on chords (chord chemistry) and chord progressions ..and single note playing over all types of chords
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The OP said "Back in the Genesis of music theory, why were upper extension chords limited to 9th, 11th, & 13th chords? Why are there not 8th, 10th, 12th, and 14th chords?"
(....... and setting aside the fact that this thread practically dates back to Genesis)
Genesis of music theory? I don't think that there were 9th, 11th and 13th chords called out as such in Gregorian chant (but then what do I know about Gregorian chant?). I do recall seeing 13th chords in 19th century music, but that occurred long after the genesis of music theory. The point being, it took a while before 9th, 11th, 13th chords were called out as such.
So, why are there not 8th, 10th, 12th, and 14th chords? Because they're chord tones, not tensions (at leas the 8th, 10th, 12th). They have a consonant/expected sound, even when doubled or tripled.
Another poster said "There are no chord tones above an octave". Well, it seems to me that's not true. Not even for the guitar. And also not for the piano, not for a full swing band, and certainly not for a full symphony orchestra. I mean, which octave are we talking about anyway? The octave inhabited by the bass, bassoon, tuba, or the piccolo? Anyway, it's all relative. Range is wide.
Last edited by Donplaysguitar; 02-27-2021 at 09:52 AM.
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Originally Posted by ruger9
Another way to think about it is:
Lower string chords - a number of books out there on the Freddie Green/shell voicings thing. Mostly for comping, but not a hard and fast rule at all. Every Jazz Guitarist should learn these.
Middle string chords - Brett Willmott's book. Good for comping and chord melody. Oh, and every Jazz Guitarist should learn these too.
Upper string chords - a variety of sources for these. Drop 2 voicings, quartal voicings, voicings with tensions, etc., etc. Great for chord melody but also some comping. Wes transcription books, Bloom School books. And you guessed it... every Jazz Guitarist should learn these.
Finally, yes Ted Greene covered everything under the sun chord wise, but that is a chosen path/rabbit hole.Last edited by Donplaysguitar; 02-27-2021 at 09:54 AM.
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Originally Posted by SwingSwangSwung
You see something similar happening with figured bass. Early on (Monteverdi’s time) the compound intervals are specified and later they are all compressed within one octave (Bach’s era) except for the occasional 9th etc
Chord symbols borrow a little from figured bass but in general went from simple major minor etc, and got more complicated over time. The non triad tones, 9ths, 13ths and so on, appear as compound intervals because these notes were generally found in the melody, so in a higher register than the chord.
Furthermore it matched up with ideas about extended chord construction in thirds.
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Does anyone know when were chord symbols first used?
I've always assumed that it began with sheet music for simple folk songs (i.e. open chords like Em, Cmaj, Amin etc.) and was then expanded to accommodate the more complex chords of jazz progressions.
Prior to that I would think that the exact notes were written out in a score, and that there was no need for the shorthand of chord symbols.
But I don't actually know, which is why I'm asking!
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Originally Posted by supersoul
What's important that is always a bass. And it describes with certain apprixomation a voicing -which of course we interpreted in terms of general harmony, functions etc.
But in direct sense it tells only the bass and voices above. So it is very practical.
Chirds symbols are sort if tge opposite essebctially: they infom more first of all about harmonic sound of the chord... in their basic form they describe harmony in the static way... even bass in esi us indicates occasionally
Although real practice developed some conventions that make interpretation of symbols very specific like Am11 will be probably interpreted very similar in voicing by different players in tradition.
But still it does not contain that information exactly
I think that figured bass appeared in tradition that cultivated sophistication and systenatization in some sense and theorizing too.
Those who invented figured bass found pleasure in describing it in details in written form however practical that skill was and is.
And modern chird symbols got on tge foeld of totally oral tradition and everyone used them the way they thought most convenient
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There was also alfabeto for baroque guitar where letters referred to chord shapes...
And it is interesting that it reminds me of a popular use of chord symbols today... for many amateur players who just comp songs D and G mean particular guitar shape... they sometimes even do not know that it is possible to play the other way
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Originally Posted by Jonah
Even now those who realise partimento on the guitar tend to go for friendly open keys like G and D. This is in the tradition of Guiliani apparently.
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Originally Posted by supersoul
This book might be interesting
The Story of Fake Books: Bootlegging Songs to Musicians - 9780810857278
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There's a whole PhD thesis on Fernando Sor vs Giuliani and the Spanish alfabeto school versus the Italian figured bass school of classical guitar composition. It's quite interesting if you like that sort of thing. Sor was much more likely to use more diverse keys, for instance.
I always felt that difference between Spanish and Italian school though I did not know about those origins of it...
But on the pther hand I am sure Sor had not problems with couterpoint playing and playing from figured bass... (to be honest to me he is much higher as a composer than Giuliani)
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Originally Posted by Jonah
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Originally Posted by supersoul
As far as I can tell, sometime around 1920 banjo charts began to incorporate chord symbols. I have seen people associate this with Paul Whiteman but I don’t know if this is true.
I’ve always believed that the system of naming chords more complex than triads was something done piecemeal by musicians on bandstands. This explains the varied ways chord symbols are written and the haphazard naming system. Honestly though, I’ve never read a comprehensive account of it.
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Originally Posted by setemupjoe
The Nashville number system is another shorthand that is used to chart out chords. I've never used it, but the intriguing thing is that it has transposition built into it. You just say "key of... " and the numbers show you how it goes. It could save having to deal with charts for C, Bb and Eb instruments.
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Originally Posted by supersoul
Actually in Russia where the classical foundation is very fundamental (there are separate mostly free state schools where kids can go together with regular schools from around 7 and then a college and a conservatory) it is also widely used in jazz colleges and education... because most guys that teach have basic classical education in theory, piano etc.
I cannot say that this education is always god - often it is very formal as it happens with parents and kids when kids just go there for years and forget everything when they quit... but still it makes educational system very much systemized.
I noticed when I began to travel and to talk with musicains friends in other countries that in Europe and Us it is very different.
The first book on jazz I had was Moltkov's Method of jazz accompaniment published in USSR, those days there were no other printed resources.
And later when the Internet and all came I realized that it was a mixture of Mickey Baker's stuff (some patterns just exactly the same) and Russian classical methods with standard notation, functions and those numerals with scale degrees.
All the harmonic patterns/subs and all that were explained and studied through numerals. And after that given in standard chord symbols and fingering charts.
Also there was lots about functions and functional relation in the way it is taught in musical schools here.
Actually I think it was good for trad jazz because it really relates things important basic things of standards harmony of functions that in English editions it is more about chord scales and all...
In my opinion it is easier to learn and implement scale ideas later when you already have basic functional harmony understanding and hearing than the opposite...
Also Ted Green used that system slight modified and adjusted for his purposes and Tim Lerch who used to be his students and keeps developing his style - also advises this approach
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It is possible to extend thirds out to include all 12-notes of the chromatic scale without breaking the overtone series. Unfortunately, the traditional tonal systems have no way of naming these structures, much less a method of using them musically. AFAIK, the Equal Interval System is the only one that tackles this issue at the outset, using its own consistent nomenclature at the very outset, and it remains consistent regardless of whatever vertical or horizonal intervals are used. That said, it is aimed more at composing than improvising.
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Originally Posted by jsaras
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Originally Posted by jsaras
Or did I misunderstand you?
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Originally Posted by jsaras
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Originally Posted by Jonah
If you want to extend a structure to include all 12 notes and have it sound good, you’ll have to arrange the intervals so as to avoid that -9 dissonance. I’ll clue you in on the easy ones; you can stack 4ths all the way out to all 12 notes without that rub, and you can stack 5ths all the way out to 12 notes. Both of those structures have no dissonance and they ring as clear as a bell. So, how would one name these structures? The basic universal unit of measuring the distance between notes is the half-step (let’s call it “1”, like it would appear on a ruler). So stacked fourths would be called 5+5. Stacked fifths would be called 7+7. A major triad would be called 4+3, a minor triad is called 3+4, a diminished chord would be 3+3
There are ways to extend tertiary structures in a similar manner out to twelve notes. I’m not at liberty to divulge that info, but I’ll drop a clue: you have to make a small adjustment as you go into each succeeding octave so as to avoid the dreaded -9 dissonance. In the EIS system it’s referred to as the theory of total dissonance, but it could be just as accurately described as total consonance.
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Originally Posted by jsaras
I am not sure about -9... the notions of consonance and dissonance are cultural...
And I guess that on modern aural area of equal temperament and very expanded hearing of consonance it is already in use in some sense.
Lydian chord is the simplest example maybe and it can be traced back to your 12 stack 3rds row as a partial application of it
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This just dropped
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Originally Posted by Jonah
The lydian chord only goes to the second octave. However, the raised 4th degree is there so as to not create a -9 interval with the major third in the vertical structure. However, the natural 4th (11th) can be used effectively to create a vertical structure if the major third is eliminated.
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