Lydian Dominant Scale

**Sailor** · 09-24-2011, 09:40 PM

I've read the articles on-line...and the Levine theory book. I'm an old burn-out I guess.

I know it's a #4, comes out of MM, is a mixo with a raised 4th, etc...

Can someone briefly explain when/where I would use Lydian Dominant in "real, guitar language"...for me??

Tx, Sailor

**JakeAcci** · 09-24-2011, 09:51 PM

It often sounds good to my ears on II7, IV7, and any subV, so bII7, bIII7, bV7, bVI7, bVII7

**jtizzle** · 09-25-2011, 12:20 AM

The way I was taught about this one was in relationship to the super locrian (alt dominant) scale, and that the scales were just TT subs of each other. The super locrian would start directly on the root, and lyd dom would start on the TT of the root.

**brwnhornet59** · 09-25-2011, 01:48 AM

Originally Posted by jtizzle

The way I was taught about this one was in relationship to the super locrian (alt dominant) scale, and that the scales were just TT subs of each other. The super locrian would start directly on the root, and lyd dom would start on the TT of the root.

That is a good insight. I have played with that idea many times but never looked at it quite like that. T/y! I do triad pairing with them, which of course makes the tritone scale. They line up as cool dom7 #11 arps as well, when vamping in MM.

Like Jake says, any time you use a V7 sub, V7#11 sounds great.

**metalmike31216** · 09-25-2011, 02:26 AM

Anytime you have a dominant chord this is static or not functional, lydian dominant is a great choice.

**Revelen** · 09-26-2011, 05:22 PM

The most typical and traditional uses of Lydian dominant are as a bII7 and bVII7. In simplest guitar terms, built on a root(not bass!) either a fret above or two frets below the root of the target chord.

Here's the math behind it:
The very earliest usages of bVII7 chords are really as the so-called "deceptive" cadence in classical harmony, or V7 to vi. Obviously, these are just the straight diatonic major V and vi chords, but this move of a dominant up a whole step is now common. If we use it towards a I chord of Eb major, watch what happens. The notes we need for the bVII7/I (Db7) are as follows: Db, F, Ab, Cb(B). If we fill in the rest of the notes (by letter names, ex. Cb cancels C, Db cancels D) from Eb major (Eb, F, G, Ab Bb C D) we end up with the following scale: Db, Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb Cb. In this scale as it realtes to a Db7 chord, we get chord tones 1, 3, 5, -7, (Db, F, Ab, Cb,) and extensions 9, #11, 13. In other words, Lydian Dominant!!!!

As far as bII7s, the origin is slightly more modern, but also simple. The tritone of the V chord in Eb (Bb7) is D and Ab. If we try to build another Dom7 chord around this tritone, we find that we can, with Fb7(also E7, but for clarity's sake, I'll leave it as Fb). Fb7 contains Fb, Ab, Cb, and Ebb. Now, these chords bII7s are obviously closely related to the other dominant that shares the tritone, which is why we frequently call them substitute dominants: they substitute easily for the original chord. If we take that orginal chord Bb7, with it's extensions of 9 and 13 we get the notes Bb, D, F, Ab, extensions C, and G. Replacing note names with the ones from the new bII7 chord Fb7, the resulting pitch set is Fb G Ab Bb Cb Ebb, we end up with a Lydian dominant scale, minus the 6. If we go ahead and wildly add that in, taadaa, another traditional tonal usage!

To recap, Lydian Dominant harmonies work well when moving to a target rooted either a half-step below or whole step above their root.

**JonnyPac** · 09-26-2011, 05:31 PM

Yes, the answers are all here. Good work, guys!

**brwnhornet59** · 09-26-2011, 05:54 PM

Right on!!!

**FatJeff** · 09-26-2011, 06:22 PM

Sailor, you've seen Emily Remler's video on this, right?

**Sailor** · 09-26-2011, 09:41 PM

OK...going to go watch Emily Remler on this now. After all your explanations I'm still lost...and I got all "A"'s in college music theory!!

Too many different explanations...melodic minor....think up a fifth...etc...

Need to see it in action and stop reading about it....Thanks for all the great responses though.

Thanks, Sailor

**brwnhornet59** · 09-27-2011, 12:22 AM

Any tritone sub of a V7 is the perfect place to use it. Blues is very easily swayed with it as well. Any time I am playing a ii V I VI7, it fits beautifully over the VI7. Like it was mentioned earlier, when ever you have a non resolving, (to the I), V chord Lydian Dom is a shoe in as well. There are many applications. Just try it and see what your ear tells you. Play around with minor ii V i. Use MM based on the ii chord for the ii and V, then natural or MM down a whole step for the i. Whatever trips your trigger.

**beasleybubba** · 09-27-2011, 08:40 AM

Emily puts her way of looking at it very simply: there are 2 kinds of dominants... (1) those that function as a V7, resolving to their implied I, and (2) those that don't. Lydian dominant sounds super hip over the second kind, dominants that don't resolve home.

Use mixo b5b13 (mode of harmonic minor) or ALT (super locrian = lyd dom a TT away from the root = mel minor up a half step) over dominants that resolve to their implied I chord.

**Sailor** · 09-27-2011, 09:12 AM

Oh...thanks...all these different ways of looking at Lydian are very helpful. Lydian dominant is really just a mixo with a raised 4th too.....right??

Sailor

**whatswisdom** · 09-27-2011, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by Sailor

Lydian dominant is really just a mixo with a raised 4th too.....right?

I prefer Lydian with b7.

**brwnhornet59** · 09-27-2011, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by Sailor

Oh...thanks...all these different ways of looking at Lydian are very helpful. Lydian dominant is really just a mixo with a raised 4th too.....right??

Sailor

Yup that is correct. It is harmonically the same as dom b5 built from other scales.

**Revelen** · 09-27-2011, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by whatswisdom

I prefer Lydian with b7.

I suppose if you wanna get reeaaaaally technical, it's Dorian with a raised third and fourth...

But -I- tend to think of it as Super Locrian with raised second, third, fifth, sixth, and doubley raised fourth...

In all actuality, I just think of it as Lydian Dominant; thinking of it as an alteration to a different mode of a different scale messes with my head! I guess whatever works for each person is probably best!

**brwnhornet59** · 09-27-2011, 11:14 AM

Well, actually Lydian b7 would be best. It is after all the 4th mode of MM.

**whatswisdom** · 09-27-2011, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by Revelen

I guess whatever works for each person is probably best!

Agreed. For me Lydian b7 best describes it without confusion. It's a Lydian scale with a lowered seventh. Lydian dominant seventh.

**Revelen** · 09-27-2011, 11:39 AM

Mmmm, it is the fourth mode, but MM is theoretically built from the Aeolian scale, with a leading tone and a raised 6 for smoother melodic phrasing, and the fourth mode of Aeolian is Dorian, which would end up having a raised third and fourth as a result of the sixth and seventh of the parent scale.

I do agree with you however, that it is simpler, if thinking about MM modes in relation to Major/Minor modes to think of the parent scale as Ionian b3, rather than minor #6 #7.

**whatswisdom** · 09-27-2011, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by Revelen

...the fourth mode of Aeolian is Dorian...

Okay, so we're into modes of modes? You'll need to elaborate...

**brwnhornet59** · 09-27-2011, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by Revelen

Mmmm, it is the fourth mode, but MM is theoretically built from the Aeolian scale, with a leading tone and a raised 6 for smoother melodic phrasing, and the fourth mode of Aeolian is Dorian, which would end up having a raised third and fourth as a result of the sixth and seventh of the parent scale.

I do agree with you however, that it is simpler, if thinking about MM modes in relation to Major/Minor modes to think of the parent scale as Ionian b3, rather than minor #6 #7.

Actually MM is an alteration of HM, used first in Classical. Both are true Minor scales and separate entities from the Major scale. But it really does not matter, as long as you know how to apply it.

**whatswisdom** · 09-27-2011, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

Actually MM is an alteration of HM

And HM is an alteration of Natural Minor, right?

**brwnhornet59** · 09-27-2011, 12:07 PM

Yes indeed. From what I understand the raising of the 7th led to a more natural resolution. The raising of the 6th in MM made it more suitable to melody and less strident. But they are a separate entity.

**whatswisdom** · 09-27-2011, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

Yes indeed. From what I understand the raising of the 7th led to a more natural resolution. The raising of the 6th in MM made it more suitable to melody and less strident. But they are a separate entity.

Cool. Thanks. Always find that questioning the questions leads to clarity.

**AlsoRan** · 09-27-2011, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by jtizzle

The way I was taught about this one was in relationship to the super locrian (alt dominant) scale, and that the scales were just TT subs of each other. The super locrian would start directly on the root, and lyd dom would start on the TT of the root.

What is the "TT," my man?