Lydian Dominant Scale

[wich]

What is the "TT," my man?

Tritone. I also think of the scale like this, at least in a jazz context (where I am a beginner, of course). It can be used in itself for some cool stuff. Most famous example is probably the bridge section of Kashmir by Led Zep. John Paul Jones improvises some lovely lines using this scale there.

Edit: scale, not chord.

[Revelen]

I think we're all saying the same thing: Natural minor didn't have great resolution, so people superimposed a leading tone, replacing the minor seventh. Now it had a great resolution, but crappy linear abilities (to their sensibilities). So, raise the sixth, and eliminate the augmented second. Wait, now it almost sounds like a major scale! Damn! Ok, so we'll only do the rasied-tone-thingy when it's necessary, mmkay. ...OK. Then jazz guys we're like, "hey this is cool, let's just play it in the altered form all the time!!!!"

Sorry about the mode of a mode thing, I should have said "Natural Minor" instead of "Aeolian." The mode based on the fourth degree of Natural Minor is the same mode as that built on the second degree of Major, or Dorian. Daz wut i wuz gettin' at, y'all; i'z juz' not that artickle-ate sum times.

[brwnhornet59]

So how do we all feel about Dom b6?

[Reg]

Once you get through all the personal history lessons... you'll get to the part where you actually play... and one of the major characteristics of playing Jazz is pulling from and using MM. If you try and use traditional harmony for your basis of using... your missing a lot. And your playing will reflect just that.... your going to sound like a traditionally trained musician trying to cover Jazz... I bet I have your attention now... It's not that complicated...
You all know the organization or pattern of MM. You can obviously use the 4th degree as a dom. chord...with any of the typical resolutions or function styles of use.
The 5th mode or degree V7 chord, isn't used much in jazz. But it's there for those folk moments... or whatever. That would be for you Brownhornet... maybe
We all use and understand The 7th degree or what has become standard practice to be called Altered ... example being Bb7alt or any of the many chord symbols.
We're all aware of tri-tone sub or root function sub... concepts...we can interchange the 4th degree, Lydianb7 and the 7th degree altered using this concept.
If you've read any of my post... I always talk about sub of a sub as a method of deriving Blue Notes and controlling their use. Anyway when you use chose to use the lyd.b7 chord for whatever reason... example being Db7#11 going to C anything, you typically can substitute, play or pull from the related G7 altered.
But now think of in a modal concept as opposed to simple tritone res.
You can almost think of as like adding a related II- to a V7 chord or the other way around... adding the related V7 chord to a II-7 chord. The concept of hearing and using as "One Chord", as in how I've talked about using standard "Chord Patterns", which function in a number of ways... but that function is related to One harmonic area, That "Chord Pattern" would or could replace One chord and is thought of as still one chord. The doors can be opened for many more options... but doesn't need to be.
So now because basically there are no avoid notes in typical jazz usage of MM... we can pull from any chordal combination from MM. Not just that one chord, or imply simply that one chord were using...
Think of MM in this modal style of use as not a collection of seven different modes with characteristic pitches and guide lines built from each degree... as in how we typically use modal playing with typical Maj/min harmony... but now as one giant mode which includes all seven degrees. There all interchangeable...
These basic sub concepts work with other tonalities as well... there are other methods of creating principles to control harmonic movement besides the tritone.
Usually the next level of use is to include Modal Interchange with the above described use and of course blue notes .
There are also different methods of relationships between MM and Maj/Min harmony. Traditionally we relate to Natural Min etc... But we can base our relationship on maj as well ...or Dorian etc... They're all doors well used by jazz players through modal interchange for sources of methodology of use.
But wait there's more... really, but I'm sure this is as good of a time as any to stop and explain in more or less detail... Reg

[pingu]

To the OP

practically speaking its good to use on the Eb7 chord
on Tunisia ..........

Just practice the |Eb7 |Dm7 | vamp round and round
It 'll get the Lyd Dom sound into your head alright

[Sailor]

I love this thread but I'd say there is still some confusion even amongst you jazz vets....especially where this comes from...what scale step of MM, is MM 6 of major...

thanks for so much insight though,
Sailor

(back to Mark Levines rather poor theory book)

[JakeAcci]

Maybe another version of a simple answer: You use lydian dominant anytime you like the sound of tensions 9, #11, and 13 on a dominant chord. I like those on II7, IV7, and any tritone sub. I use it on I7 on a blues often...

[brwnhornet59]

I always talk about sub of a sub as a method of deriving Blue Notes and controlling their use. Anyway when you use chose to use the lyd.b7 chord for whatever reason... example being Db7#11 going to C anything, you typically can substitute, play or pull from the related G7 altered.
But now think of in a modal concept as opposed to simple tritone res.
You can almost think of as like adding a related II- to a V7 chord or the other way around... adding the related V7 chord to a II-7 chord. The concept of hearing and using as "One Chord", as in how I've talked about using standard "Chord Patterns", which function in a number of ways... but that function is related to One harmonic area, That "Chord Pattern" would or could replace One chord and is thought of as still one chord. The doors can be opened for many more options... but doesn't need to be.
So now because basically there are no avoid notes in typical jazz usage of MM... we can pull from any chordal combination from MM. Not just that one chord, or imply simply that one chord were using...
Think of MM in this modal style of use as not a collection of seven different modes with characteristic pitches and guide lines built from each degree... as in how we typically use modal playing with typical Maj/min harmony... but now as one giant mode which includes all seven degrees. There all interchangeable...
These basic sub concepts work with other tonalities as well... there are other methods of creating principles to control harmonic movement besides the tritone.
Usually the next level of use is to include Modal Interchange with the above described use and of course blue notes .
There are also different methods of relationships between MM and Maj/Min harmony. Traditionally we relate to Natural Min etc... But we can base our relationship on maj as well ...or Dorian etc... They're all doors well used by jazz players through modal interchange for sources of methodology of use.
But wait there's more... really, but I'm sure this is as good of a time as any to stop and explain in more or less detail... Reg

Thanx Reg for talking about Modal interchange. I believe that was going to be your next topic in the MM thread.

[Reg]

I love this thread but I'd say there is still some confusion even amongst you jazz vets....especially where this comes from...what scale step of MM, is MM 6 of major...

thanks for so much insight though,
Sailor

(back to Mark Levines rather poor theory book)

Hey Sailor... If your looking for a golden Rule.... it's not going to happen.
There are common situations where we use the 4th degree of MM, Lyd.Dom, Lyd.b7 or what ever you want to call the chord built from that pitch collection.
General rules of thumb.... ( no context )
Dom7th moving down 5th = some kind of Mixo.
Dom7th moving down 1/2 step = Lydb7
Dom7th moving up 1/2 step = Altered
Most of the rest of root motions have too many options for general rules.
With Dom7th chords...There are a few methods, approaches or concept of using... which all have different applications... (how you create, define and use the Pitch collection,(scale) and intervals.
The 1st which is basically how your trying to understand is as a dominant approach. Revelen's 1st post showing the basic traditional "math", I like that, anyway The standard V/ bVII, which when you construct the scale from "chord tones" and fill in from implied tonal center as he did... you end up with Lyd.b7 or Lyd.Dom....from MM.
I'm taking it for granted you have done this or have been taught from somewhere or someone the standard scales from all the V7's of all diatonic chords... If not here you go...
Just for reference, these are called Secondary Dominants, V7 chords that resolve to Diatonic chords other than I.
Some of the chord tones are non-diatonic, anyway create the scale from V7 chord tones and fill in rest from diatonic area.
Pretty standard... key of C
V7/I............G7, mixo Cmaj or Nat min
V7/II-.........A7b13 5th degree D MM
V7/III-........B7b9b13 5th degree E HM
V7/IV .........C7.......mixo
V7/V...........D7......mixo
V7/VI-........E7b9b13 5th degree A HM
V7/VII-7b5..F#7b9b13 5th degree B HM
This process can be done with the rest of the common scales, MM and HM .
Typically in Jazz Harmony we have "Natural tensions"; 9, #11, 13. 9 and 13 are diatonic to the key and #11, although non-diatonic, occurs early in the Harmonic series and is generally considered a natural tension.
"Altered tensions"; b9, #9, b5 and b13. b9 and b13 are chromatic alterations , #9 is generally a Blue note and b5 can also be a blue note or altered chord tone. It will take me too much time too break down all the possibilities of interpretations.
Also typically in Jazz we use a simple version of Modal Interchange to come up with bVII7,(and a shit load of other chords).
Anyway Think of C maj. Now think of the parallel Min. C-. That's your simple version of Modal Interchange. So now the actual chords change...
Cmaj; Cma7, D-7, E-7, Fma7, G7, A-7, B-7b5
Cmin; C-7, D-7b5, Ebma7, F-7, G-7, Abma7, "Bb7"
So there's typically in Jazz where the bVII7 chord is from.
The next simple dominant source is again as Revelen somewhat explained...Tri-tone subs. We're inverting the tritone to create a new Dom. Chord. G7 by way of inverting the tri-tone becomes Db7. Were using the same dominant function or the same tri-tone resolution for our Dominant function. How you derive the tensions after the chord tones... is much more complicated than simply filling in from standard implied tonal area from original V7 chord....I didn't really get his method of deriving scale and the resulting scale...was this a typo..."Fb, G, Ab, Bb,Cb,Ebb... then add the 6th or Db... What scale is that... doesn't look like Lyd.b7...Probable typo... Revelen appears to know what he's talking about.
So when we fill in... there are a few possibilities... We can get into Sub.Dom.Min. chordal cadences... the three most common are ;
1) IVmaj, IV-, Imaj7
2) IV-7, bVII7, Imaj7
3) bvimaj7, bIImaj7, Imaj7
There is also a method of through using chromatic alterations between V7 and Imaj7, smoother resolutions, anyway G7 becomes G7(alt), and then simple subV/V with same pitch collection.
I need to get on the road... I'll try and break down a few other common methods of using 7th chords with Lydb7 with out using Dom function as source of determining pitch collection.... What I really need to do is post more videos of playing Jazz tunes with verbal analysis... Reg

[JonnyPac]

Reg delivers! Nice.

[Sailor]

Thanks all....thanks Reg. A lot to think about for sure

Sailor

[whatswisdom]

Thumbs up, Reg. Thanks for this...

[Revelen]

I agree, this Reg guy seems to know his stuff: I like him! And no, I don't think that was a typo on my part, but I have no idea what the hell I was trying to talk about! Unless I was making the point that the resulting dominant hexatonic scale with a #2 and #4 and no 6 doesn't sound all that nifty and doesn't resolve worth crap to its target... Nice bit of magic there though, "so as you see, distantly related keys work in perfect harmony, if you change all but two notes!" I really hope anyone trying to glean info from this thread ignores that last paragraph...I'd feel awesome if I was responsible for 20 people learning to play Lyd. Dom. with altered 9s...

[cubistguitar]

well that was a nice thought out response from Reg!

keep up the good work Reg, people do appreciate you helping them along with the heavy algebra, melodic minor just doen't quite come out of my ear naturally yet, but i keep pulling it out and working with it, this insight may help some more too.

very kind work!

[brwnhornet59]

There is also a method of through using chromatic alterations between V7 and Imaj7, smoother resolutions, anyway G7 becomes G7(alt), and then simple subV/V with same pitch collection.
I need to get on the road... I'll try and break down a few other common methods of using 7th chords with Lydb7 with out using Dom function as source of determining pitch collection.... What I really need to do is post more videos of playing Jazz tunes with verbal analysis... Reg

The G7 alt to V/V is interesting. Cycling V7's in fifths is cool. I liked the bii-, bVII7, I, as well.


I look forward to your video. Thanx.

Nice cook book Reg!!

[LvJz]

Sorry just when you thought it was all over. Why is the aug4 in LD crucial over a dominant chord in a non-functioning context? Is there something about the p4th in the straight ahead Mixolydian scale that makes it a bad choice?

[JakeAcci]

It's not crucial, but it's certainly more colorful. In many of the situations described in this thread the #11 of a dominant chord would actually be within the key of the moment, while the nat 11 would not be, like in bVII7 and bII7

[Revelen]

Ditto what Jake said. It also takes us out of the "this is the Dominant V chord which will soon resolve to the I chord" vibe of natural 11 harmony. Plus, many people consider natural 11s on major type chords to be an earsore, or to compromise the harmonic integrity, so in that mindset, you gain an extra extension to play with. I say 7(9,11,13) chords are tasty!

[timscarey]

if you compare chord types, I think the closest derivation of the MM scale is by raising the 7th of a dorian scale, making the Parent scale of "D"MM "C"Major


DMM = Dm6-Em7-FMaj(b5)-G7-A7-Bm7(b5)-C#alt

CMaj = Dm6-Em7-FMaj7---G7-Am7-Bm7(b5)-CMaj7

Call me crazy, but it makes sense to me.

notice that the only chords in the two systems that differ are the "tonic" chords, all of the non-tonic chords retain their original chord types and the scales are altered by raising only one note.... the root of the parent scale.

Oops, I didnt read the rest of the thread before posting this. it's a little off topic. either way.....