melodic minor question

**jackofall** · 09-05-2011, 10:37 AM

I'm working my way through joe Elliott's book 'Jazz Guitar soloing' and I'm finding it really clearly written. For the first time, I think I understand the concept of the altered scale being the same as the melodic min scale one semitone up from the root of the functioning V7 chord. So, over a G7 chord that resolves to C major chord, you'd use the A flat melodic min scale notes over the V7 chord...right?.....but here's the thing I don't understand: How can the A flat note sound any good against a G???It sounds terrible, but the other notes don't. I'm missing something here!

**kenbennett** · 09-05-2011, 10:46 AM

Ab is the flat 9 in G7alt. If you play it in a lower register it clashes with the root. But up where it belongs, no problem.

**keith** · 09-05-2011, 11:56 AM

Remember also that it's intention is to resolve to the 5th of Cmaj ( the G ) your I chord. So use it to set up the tension for that resolution just as you might use the Eb ( 5th of Ab ) to resolve to the 3rd of C.

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 09-05-2011, 12:24 PM

Sounds okay in this chord:

GAlt: 343444

(Just going for a big chord there with lots of the altered notes.)

**brwnhornet59** · 09-05-2011, 03:31 PM

Indeed!!! Remember the other altered notes are in AbMM against that G7alt as well. Quite a few to work with.

Also if the 5th is not altered in a G7b9, you can play Dorian b9,(2nd mode of FMM), against it.

**Reg** · 09-05-2011, 05:21 PM

Once you teach your ears to hear MM. You open one of the main doors to playing jazz. One of the cool things about MM is that what ever door you choose to play through, by that I mean any of the chords built on scale degrees of MM. Lydian b7,(4th degree), Altered,(7th degree) or I-maj7 etc... my point is MM is more of a sound, you can usually play off any scale degree once you start, there are two tri-tones, which also open doors or approaches.
The point about the b9 against 1... is basic voicing principles... min 2nds are somewhat dissonance... any min 2nds. When you do use them, they usually need some help, how you set up and what other intervals you use with them.... becomes standard practice after a while.
Don't approach MM from a traditional music approach when playing jazz... you'll be missing some major concepts. I don't know Joe Elliots book, I'll check it out... and post some more comments. Reg

**brwnhornet59** · 09-05-2011, 05:25 PM

I would like to hear more of your thoughts on the subject Reg.

**Reg** · 09-05-2011, 11:50 PM

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

I would like to hear more of your thoughts on the subject Reg.

Which direction... use of MM as a jazz player as opposed to traditional standard functional voice leading BS. Or the use of the two tri-tones, or The use of intervals to deceptively camouflage min.2nds etc.... I bet you could almost explain where I'm coming from... Everything I do has a concept, even when I simply react. You usually have pretty good skills at seeing more than the obvious. Anyway... give me a direction...Reg

**brwnhornet59** · 09-06-2011, 12:01 AM

Quite frankly, all of the above. But would you start with the use of intervals to camouflage -2nds? Anything to do with MM has my attention. It is still a new territory that I am only starting to feel somewhat comfortable with. T/y!!

**Reg** · 09-06-2011, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

Quite frankly, all of the above. But would you start with the use of intervals to camouflage -2nds? Anything to do with MM has my attention. It is still a new territory that I am only starting to feel somewhat comfortable with. T/y!!

Sure man... the interval thing is basically an arranging technique, which translates to how we voice on guitar. I'm taking for granted your aware of intervals, 2nds, 3rds etc... and that our ears generally hear some intervals as consonant or dissonant. Most of the time consonant intervals are somewhat at rest, they don't feel like they need to resolve or go somewhere. And just the opposite for Dissonant intervals. Starting from Consonant to Dissonant... we generally think of octaves, 3rds and 6ths. Next would be perfect 5ths and 4ths... 2nds and 7ths and then the tri-tone, (b5th or #4ths). Most put the cut off point somewhere between 4ths and 2nds... There is always some sort of context...even if just in our head. So that line between dissonance and consonance is loose.
So moving on to how we use this basic principle with our guitar voicings... There is always a balance to use of consonant and dissonant intervals when we play chords. Obviously there are many factors, range, volume, duration, articulations and on and on... we generally simply say "context" to cover every thing besides what we're playing.
You need to be pretty hip to really be aware of everything we use context to cover...
But the way I use this principle, consonance and dissonance, in my chordal playing is pretty simple... I always begin with a analysis of what I'm playing. Then based on the style and my analysis of the the "context", I decide on the style of voicings I'm going to use. I already have all my personal style defined according to how I hear and how I've decided typical styles etc... generally require.
When I'm backing a vocalist or playing Dinner gigs or basically straight audiences.... I don't use very dissonant voicings, to me voicings with more dissonant intervals than constant. It's not that I don't use them, simply at selected locations. You can think of ratios and selected locations. I'm always aware of the harmonic rhythm of music and always use that as my outline of where to use and then always try and think of the ratio... The ratio would be actual duration of consonant as compared to dissonant voicings and where played in relationship to the Harmonic Rhythm.
Think about that formula... it's very simple... but involves a lot of info.
May sound somewhat complicated... but becomes standard practice once you actually think about it and put into your playing.
There's obviously the complete other side of the spectrum... playing hip contemporary gigs... much more interesting. Think about it and I'll gladly break down the details...Reg

**brwnhornet59** · 09-06-2011, 03:31 PM

Hey Reg, great answer. You def gave me something to think about in a clearer light. T/y! I will get on that.

If you don't mind would you elaborate on the use of MM as a jazz player, as opposed to traditional standard functional voice leading please?

Thanx again.

**Reg** · 09-06-2011, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

Hey Reg, great answer. You def gave me something to think about in a clearer light. T/y! I will get on that.

If you don't mind would you elaborate on the use of MM as a jazz player, as opposed to traditional standard functional voice leading please?

Thamx again.

No problem... I dig getting into this sh*t... I have a rehearsal , but no gig tonight, I'll get into it later. Glad I opened some new doors... Reg

**JonnyPac** · 09-06-2011, 07:27 PM

Cool beans, Reg.

I dig using "safe" shapes to voice vanilla or sophisticated harmonies (MM, Dim, and such). Using triads, So What, and 4ths as upper structures is a great start. Also preferring M7 inversions of what would be a b9's in between any to chord tones is a good rule of thumb.

You can solo using the shape-based "Charlie Christian" method and pinpoint the MM intervals. It's a way of sounding classic bop and modern all at once.

**Reg** · 09-07-2011, 06:09 PM

Hey Brownhornet59... before I simply give my explanation, which I dig and have plenty to say... but I am a believer of figuring things out for yourself... Lets break down this process or concept of using MM in a jazz style together...might be a good thing for all... I mean... using MM, blues, modal concepts and modal interchange... presto your a hip jazz player... I'm BSing, but that's pretty close. Reg

**brwnhornet59** · 09-07-2011, 06:45 PM

Ok, I'm in. What next???

**JonnyPac** · 09-08-2011, 07:42 PM

How about a cool Reg video on MM licks?

**Reg** · 09-09-2011, 10:14 AM

Lets start with Using MM on typical II- V's. Start with standard II- to V7 analysis, using Dorian and Mixo. to represent complete pitch collections, not simply scales to play. Then begin to pull from MM... what are some standard methods to theoretical introduce MM, and examples of doing so. What are the ways to balance use of new harmonic area with existing... Reg

**brwnhornet59** · 09-09-2011, 10:37 AM

Well we could start by pulling from the tritone sub of the V thereby introducing Db lydian b7.

D-7/ Db7#11

or add a b13 to the G7 to invoke G Dom b6.

D-7/G7b13

or D-7/G7b9 drawing from AbMM

**Reg** · 09-09-2011, 02:46 PM

Cool Man... so your thinking of subs for the G7. So the concept is tri-tone sub, invert the tritone and have a different dominant chord, which is great when we know where we're going... If we're simply playing on a II V vamp, that's fairly different pitch collections.
G, A, B, C, D, E, F, G
G, Ab,Bb,Cb,Db,Eb,F G
Would require great ears or skills to make work easily. Is done all the time in progressions with more movement. Very easy to use when there is a typical strong/weak harmonic rhythmic pattern going on. On our simple II- V7 vamp... would be much more difficult . Would need to set up or only play on weak side of V7 chord. Or use notes from tri-tone sub melodically... which usually then really can become a different method or source of notes as compared to the actual TT sub or Db7#11.
Your 2nd approach is much more useful in this simple example... Modal Interchange. Now you basically have a door to open to any tonal area with same root.... The basic trick to using MM when using Modal interchange as method or source of new pitch collection is to use something simple or that is established and already used in standards. Your choice of b13 on G7 is cool because it's one of the blue notes of implied target of II-V7 or in this case... Cmaj. So that Eb is very common and easily heard as blue note or #9 of C. There are tons of jazz tunes that already use it and is standard usage by jazz players. There is also a fairly simple theoretical explanation of Blue notes from simple sub of a sub source... I covered that many times... So once you open a door, introduce MM through somewhat of a simple source, it's much easier to keep going. You've set up the ears to be able to hear many more options. There's a method to your madness... I also use the opposite... I Modal interchange the G7 to G Lydian b7 first, especially on simple vamps or grooves... even when very short or part of more complex chord progression.... as long as it works with approach. You always need a system of organization with your use.... noodling or playing by chance... doesn't work. Obviously the better player you become... the more levels or complex your usage can become. Sometimes that translates to helping make your soloing more interesting. There is always a balance... Great start, I'll make a video later this afternoon of these approaches... there are more... Reg

**brwnhornet59** · 09-09-2011, 06:30 PM

Good, then I started off with several applicable examples. I was going to state G lydian b7, but thought it might be to obvious, but then again I was over thinking since it is a simple two chord vamp. On the flip side I was thinking of resolution to C. The C# from DMM seemed a little more strident against the CM7. But the C# also is a good chromatic leading tone back to C. That is how I viewed the tritone sub, ( D Db C), but obviously there is much more tension using AbMM.

But usage is what I am interested the most in!!! Lead on.

**Reg** · 09-09-2011, 08:53 PM

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

Good, then I started off with several applicable examples. I was going to state G lydian b7, but thought it might be to obvious, but then again I was over thinking since it is a simple two chord vamp. On the flip side I was thinking of resolution to C. The C# from DMM seemed a little more strident against the CM7. But the C# also is a good chromatic leading tone back to C. That is how I viewed the tritone sub, ( D Db C), but obviously there is much more tension using AbMM.

But usage is what I am interested the most in!!! Lead on.

If you think of concepts first... rather than examples... you'll usually have a better understanding of what your playing. Tri-tone concept can relate to actual 3rd and 7th thing, dominant resolution or cadence, but can also be applied to other methods of controlling harmony. Roots motion, with or without relationship to tonal center.
Movement of harmonic areas, with constant structure or other methods of controlling type of harmonic areas...over that root motion. Sorry I'm drifting... Remember when I was talking about balance formulas for how I use intervals, How I control my tension/release to fit the situation. I think the same way when I'm introducing different harmonic areas.... Which all relates to the situation or I could even say context. But usually to me the context would include everything I'm aware of.... So back to how I decide on what approach or in this case how I'm choosing to pull from MM. On a scale, any scale. In our simple II- V7, D-7 to G7 example, going from G7 tonal area to Db7#11 tonal area is extreme... all half step movement is. But going from G7mixo to G7 lydianb7 is somewhat easy, at least at the 1st level.
Your traditional voice leading is good example of one of the many differences between traditional MM usage and Jazz usage,
D-7----D... F.. C
Db7----Db..F..Cb
CM7---C....E...B
Other options , but the guiding light is smooth and least amount of movement. Whereas in Jazz... we look for constant structure, pedals and leaps, different methods of controlling voice leading.
F...C....E....A
F...Cb..Eb..Bb
G...C...E....B
That could very easily be a II- V7 I in a very bluesy style... My point can be very simply... be aware of traditional voice leading... so you know what not to do. I didn't really say that... disclaimer... Sorry I gots to go... I'll finish later Reg

**brwnhornet59** · 09-09-2011, 09:48 PM

I understood your first 3 examples, but you other options threw me. Are they leading tones as well? F C E A. F and C being b3 and b7 of D-, and E and A being 13 and 9 of G7?

F Cb Eb Bb, being drawn from AbMM. F Cb, b3 and 13 of D-. Eb Bb, b13 and #9 of G7. That makes me want to resolve on 9th of the C-M7 chord. That's what i am hearing.

G C E B. G and C, the 11th and b7 of D-7, E and B, 6th and 3rd of G7.

Or were you going somewhere else?

You can be difficult to follow at times. Like me, you jump around a lot with these ideas in your head that are clear as a bell to you, BUT........to me I need clarity so I know i am following you correctly.

**Reg** · 09-10-2011, 10:12 AM

Sorry... for confusion... Examples were for simply showing differences between somewhat traditional voice leading as compared to more in a jazz style on Guitar. I'm not looking for...nor do I want traditional voice leading as in contrapuntal style music, with it's principles governing the individual lines... The term leading tone is usually reserved for traditional movement of 7th... I take it your using leading tone to simply mean notes going in a direction becoming individual lines.
Both examples were of D-(dorian), Db7(lydb7), Cmaj.(Ionian) .
The basic point of voice leading discussion was to show that jazz harmonic movement, voice leading... playing changes... is very different than traditional comping. Most of the practices, such as parallel 5ths, constant structure, dissonances not resolving in typical manor, large leaps etc... which are considered "wrong" traditionally are standard practice in jazz. They can become a concept or method and work as technique to help define style, structurally or aesthetically.
Should we move on...

**brwnhornet59** · 09-10-2011, 11:33 AM

Yes, I understand your points on voice leading and how you used it. T/y =)

Yes, please continue, I am fascinated by the subject. I have seen the usage that you described, especially non resolving dissonance and large intervallic leaps. I have been messing around with octave displacement and chromatism to approach target notes. I have started reading Bert Ligons Connecting Chords with Linear Harmony. I am learning a lot of new ideas as well as expanding on what I thought I knew about ideas I already use. The whole thing is so cool. But I have much to learn, so please lead on!!