How to count in jazz

[JonnyPac]

I see.. Seems heavy but a lot of fun...

Listen to the end harmonized solo on the eagles Hotel California (right before the fade-out)! That'll be an easy example.

[drobniuch]

Someone mentioned counting in funk.

Funk isn't "one two three four", it's "ONE two three four".

As Bootsy Collins would say: "It's all on the one!" Same with James Brown.

yep funk and ROCK

[Karel]

Listen to the end harmonized solo on the eagles Hotel California (right before the fade-out)! That'll be an easy example.

Thats a great example Thanks!
Ive used polyrythms before without even knowing it its a nice way of building tension..

[Karel]

To come back to the original question re.
counting 1 & 3 , or 2 & 4..........

My experience is that I have practiced [and listened]
with a 2 & 4 emphasis for over 10 years.....
Great for practice, yeah, but
I found that I could get a little shaky on the whereabouts of the almighty ONE.
After checking out Hal's 1 & 3 approach...I went through a period
of indecision ["count 1& 3, or 2 & 4?]
.... Not that I'm consciously counting after all these years playing....

But, like our original poster, I started to feel a little self-conscious
about the whole counting while playing issue, and it was interrupting
my musical flow.
I thought Damn!....I feel like a kid starting over....
Then, one day while warming up on some lines that I like to think I can burn on,
.. it struck me.....I can have BOTH....metronome on 2 & 4....[to give
the hi-hat groove thing ] BUT, ...I could FEEL the 1 & 3 thing.....

SO.....IMO there are two issues in flow here...the metronome [on 2 & 4] is
for the simulated swing ...While the "half time" [1 & 3] feel...is to settle
the time down [a bodily sensation for me] and give strong markers as
to where the line feels where it's is headed.

Try it, you're much less likely to lose "one" with some time in the shed doing this.
My time has certainly settled .

Hope this helps.

Thanks for the great tip! I feel more of a swing in my lines when i use the metronome on the 2 and the 4 but like you said i loose track of the one.
So if im right you would practice with the metronome on 2 and 4 to 'feel the swing', but count and tap the 1 and 3?

[Moonray]

Yeah, metronome on 2 & 4....."feel" the 1 & 3.
.... I say "feel" 1 & 3, to emphasize the importance
that the "target" beats become very strong; a bodily
sensation just like the funk groove ...on the ONE.

Amongst other things,I have spent many years with Brazilian grooves
...the basic samba is fundamentally based on 1 & 3.
Although the Brazilian swing is quite a different dialect
to North American based swing...it still relies on 1 & 3....just
like Hal suggests for our jazz feels [bop/post bop/freebop etc]

May I suggest a fantastic book [yeah, I know, ANOTHER book]
called... "Samba: Brasil World Music ...Exploring Hot Rhythms Samba,
Afro-Latin and Funk". The author is an Australian born trumpeter/
musicologist Mike Ryan....resident in Rio for 30 some years. He just breathes this stuff.

A student of mine got a real Brazilian jones after hearing Baden Powell
and set off alone to Brazil with no contacts, to get into the music deep.
One of the many teachers and mentors she worked with was Mike Ryan.
I have met the man and hung with him ....let me tell you he is really Inside
rhythm.....His book was a revelation to me!
He has you sound out the rhythms spoken to a drum beat [played on a surdo..or bass drum].....BUT, the cleverest idea he has employed is to
have the player stand while holding a shaker in one hand;I use one
of those fun little "egg" shakers you can buy for 5 bucks...
Anyway...you play ["say"] the music examples while doing a kind of simple
dance step.... just walking in place really....SO...the whole body is
engaged.....You go left -right...which is the underlying one-two....while
shaking the shaker in 16th's...and sounding out the rhythms verbally.
You don't count [except maybe if you get a little hung-up on the written
notes]...The rhythms are initially written using little boxes...these will have
dots in them to indicate that you sound them.[Notation is brought in quite soon.]
You ape the voice on the cd...using the syllable "dee".
Perfect for pick style guitarists [alternate pickers anyhow]...because
your right hand [assuming you're a righty] goes back and forth in double
time..like a funk rhythm guitarist does......You're transferring your
weight from left to right , so the 1 - 2 thing gets going on auto [that's the
original Hal Galper concept] and really all you have to do is to "dee dee dee"
to the guy's voice on the record.
The exercises are modular, two beats each , [8x16th's] and they progress
quite quickly to some pretty hip stuff!
Everyone I've introduced to this approach gets it almost immediately
and it puts a smile on their face, cause it's like a big kid thing to do.
So let's all all pick and grin .....in a Wes kinda way, and groove the heck
out of our skins!

I do not have any connection to Mr Ryan BTW....I just think he has come
up with a truly practical and FUN way to get the beat in your bones.

Regarding availability of the book ,for anyone interested ,it was published
by Lumiar Editora in Rio de Janeiro , 2002.

Hope this is of some interest.

Remember Dizzy used to say that he thought of a rhythm, and put notes
to it. It's that important folks.

[JonnyPac]

Remember Dizzy used to say that he thought of a rhythm, and put notes
to it. It's that important folks.

For sure. That's a huge part of creating a nice line. Sometimes it becomes a chicken of egg situation. The rhythm or the harmonic/melodic content first? Jazz improv is pretty great that way.

[Karel]

Yeah, metronome on 2 & 4....."feel" the 1 & 3.
.... I say "feel" 1 & 3, to emphasize the importance
that the "target" beats become very strong; a bodily
sensation just like the funk groove ...on the ONE.

Amongst other things,I have spent many years with Brazilian grooves
...the basic samba is fundamentally based on 1 & 3.
Although the Brazilian swing is quite a different dialect
to North American based swing...it still relies on 1 & 3....just
like Hal suggests for our jazz feels [bop/post bop/freebop etc]

May I suggest a fantastic book [yeah, I know, ANOTHER book]
called... "Samba: Brasil World Music ...Exploring Hot Rhythms Samba,
Afro-Latin and Funk". The author is an Australian born trumpeter/
musicologist Mike Ryan....resident in Rio for 30 some years. He just breathes this stuff.

A student of mine got a real Brazilian jones after hearing Baden Powell
and set off alone to Brazil with no contacts, to get into the music deep.
One of the many teachers and mentors she worked with was Mike Ryan.
I have met the man and hung with him ....let me tell you he is really Inside
rhythm.....His book was a revelation to me!
He has you sound out the rhythms spoken to a drum beat [played on a surdo..or bass drum].....BUT, the cleverest idea he has employed is to
have the player stand while holding a shaker in one hand;I use one
of those fun little "egg" shakers you can buy for 5 bucks...
Anyway...you play ["say"] the music examples while doing a kind of simple
dance step.... just walking in place really....SO...the whole body is
engaged.....You go left -right...which is the underlying one-two....while
shaking the shaker in 16th's...and sounding out the rhythms verbally.
You don't count [except maybe if you get a little hung-up on the written
notes]...The rhythms are initially written using little boxes...these will have
dots in them to indicate that you sound them.[Notation is brought in quite soon.]
You ape the voice on the cd...using the syllable "dee".
Perfect for pick style guitarists [alternate pickers anyhow]...because
your right hand [assuming you're a righty] goes back and forth in double
time..like a funk rhythm guitarist does......You're transferring your
weight from left to right , so the 1 - 2 thing gets going on auto [that's the
original Hal Galper concept] and really all you have to do is to "dee dee dee"
to the guy's voice on the record.
The exercises are modular, two beats each , [8x16th's] and they progress
quite quickly to some pretty hip stuff!
Everyone I've introduced to this approach gets it almost immediately
and it puts a smile on their face, cause it's like a big kid thing to do.
So let's all all pick and grin .....in a Wes kinda way, and groove the heck
out of our skins!

I do not have any connection to Mr Ryan BTW....I just think he has come
up with a truly practical and FUN way to get the beat in your bones.

Regarding availability of the book ,for anyone interested ,it was published
by Lumiar Editora in Rio de Janeiro , 2002.

Hope this is of some interest.

Remember Dizzy used to say that he thought of a rhythm, and put notes
to it. It's that important folks.

Thanks for the tips!
Will keep the book in mind sounds intresting!

[ybjazz]

With the original question in mind, and I'm speaking in regards to the straight ahead swing style:

I can agree with a 1 & 3 concept in regards to up tempo songs, as that would be counting the song in half time, but my experience tells me that you should focus on the 2 & 4 concept. I understand that it's difficult to play 2 & 4 with the metronome and keep it going without losing track, but I think it's pretty critical to the development of any jazz player to learn to do that and understand where 1 and 3 is, but not center your groove around the 1 and 3. I could go into a lot more detail, but my opinion is that if you really want to learn to groove with both your comping and your single-note playing- 2 & 4 should be your baby. Vinny Valentino has a great video on YouTube about groove that you should check out.

[Karel]

With the original question in mind, and I'm speaking in regards to the straight ahead swing style:

I can agree with a 1 & 3 concept in regards to up tempo songs, as that would be counting the song in half time, but my experience tells me that you should focus on the 2 & 4 concept. I understand that it's difficult to play 2 & 4 with the metronome and keep it going without losing track, but I think it's pretty critical to the development of any jazz player to learn to do that and understand where 1 and 3 is, but not center your groove around the 1 and 3. I could go into a lot more detail, but my opinion is that if you really want to learn to groove with both your comping and your single-note playing- 2 & 4 should be your baby. Vinny Valentino has a great video on YouTube about groove that you should check out.

Thanks watched the video!

[JakeAcci]

I apologize for not reading all posts - just wanting to chime in with another vote for 2 and 4. When practicing swing with a metronome, 2 and 4 is default.

When playing with others, I have to feel time the way they are feeling it to, well, sound good together.

[Jabberwocky]

How useful is the Peterson Bodybeat Pulsating Metronome for this? Has anyone used one? I cannot figure out how to read beats and rhythms. I sorta pick up the rhythms off records and learn the notes to put to them, as Dizzy sez.

[JonnyPac]

2 and 4 is standard and works great for most traditional phrases. The ability to touch down with a slower pulse i.e., ONE - - - is that you can use tuplets easier without the 2 and 4 stabbing thru your ideas.

[JakeAcci]

2 and 4 is standard and works great for most traditional phrases. The ability to touch down with a slower pulse i.e., ONE - - - is that you can use tuplets easier without the 2 and 4 stabbing thru your ideas.

It's a good point JP - quarter note triplets with 2 and 4 is more complicated than with 1 and 3. It's good to be able to hear it though.

[JonnyPac]

Yup yup.