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I found a book called "George Van Epps Methods for Guitar" on Django Books. Is this the same as his "Guitar Methods" book?
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09-22-2015 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by monk
OK. I hear and understand the rationale for him playing the F triad (IV) instead of A min (vi) and why it made sense back then. But if I am going through his method now, should I still play it as an F, or play it as A min?
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I'm starting to go through the George Van Eps Method (got it off of djangobooks). It seems like the first few exercises focus on the 1st inversion form of the triads (E G C).
The exercises say to play "in all the keys", but as far as I can tell that is simply moving the same 1st inversion shapes up the neck. Would a good way to do this be by playing down through 4ths? (C F Bb etc?) It seems like if I did every exercise in every key it might take a long time to get through this book
Will the other triad inversions be taught later?
Overall, if you've worked through this book, what would you say you learned from it? I have both Mickey Baker's book and this one and was trying to decide which one I should work through first?
Thanks!
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Well, I think one of the pros and more advanced members here can answer better than I can. As far as I can tell, GVE is very specific in his instructions about the way he designed this to be practiced. I'm around 2 months into it, following his instructions exactly. I think that it was his intention that it take a very long time, perhaps a few years, to complete the book. After 2 months of working through the forms fairly diligently, I still don't have all of the transitions completely smooth. Of course, I' playing on an acoustic which makes it a bit more difficult. But I can see how it will take a few years to really master his approach. As far as use, I struggled, like you, in trying to find out how this material is applicable. All I can say is that I am starting to be able to find ways to plug in little tidbits, say a 3 or 4 triad phrase, in some songs I am learning. But I'm just only starting to get a glimmer of the applicability. I've decided to see this through. What can it hurt? I think if nothing else, it helps my technique and helps my knowledge of the fretboard. For me, there's a lot of faith involved here in that I hope there will be a larger payoff. But if not, I'm still enjoying working on his method. I suspect others will be able to give you much better information and advice than I have to offer. But do stay in touch. I would love to have someone to bounce ideas off who is going through the book at the same time that I am.
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I totally agree with you -- what can it hurt? In general I tend to jump between different materials and I've heard enough about this method and how triads are a good way to internalize the fretboard and chords that I'm willing to spend the time on it. But it would be nice to get more confirmation that its helped people's playing in some way
How are you practicing in all keys? Do you have a specific strategy? Just playing it chromatically?
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Yes, practicing it chromatically. I tried going through the circle of fifths, but you run out of room quickly with some of the forms. So, I'm doing as he said.
I worked with Mickey Baker's book for a while. But what helped me most to start to get into chord melody was learning drop 2 chord voicings. Still far from mastering them, but found them more useful than Mickey Baker's book, at least for what I am learning.
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Like you, I struggle with focus. So much out there. But for now, I've got 3 things I'm focusing on, in terms of chops-building. GVE method, drop 2 chord voicings and David Reed's "Improvise for Real" method. Check that out. It's pretty cool and i have to say, very liberating. Other than that, my focus is on songs and trying to apply all of this stuff to tunes. I figure that this will give me enough to work on for the rest of my life. I'm 65, so I'm hoping for another 20 good years, if I'm lucky. Originally Posted by jazzstudent
I totally agree with you -- what can it hurt? In general I tend to jump between different materials and I've heard enough about this method and how triads are a good way to internalize the fretboard and chords that I'm willing to spend the time on it. But it would be nice to get more confirmation that its helped people's playing in some way
How are you practicing in all keys? Do you have a specific strategy? Just playing it chromatically?
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I have a page on my website devoted to this Method, with lots of videos of the exercises. Usually I just play the exercise, without adding anything - some people just want to hear what's written. However, in one of the videos I explore a little bit how we might use this material.
Website: George Van Eps Method For Guitar | Rob MacKillop ~ Musician
After a couple of short exercises comes the practical application, at 1'28"
It may or may not be of interest to learn that the guitarist in the mega-successful disco band, Chic, worked heavily with this book. His guitar parts do show a good usage of chord voicings. Nile Rogers, I think, is his name.Last edited by Rob MacKillop; 12-04-2015 at 02:18 PM.
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Just a side thought.....
The Van Eps books are like the Slonimsky Thesaurus everyone has them, have spent a little time with them, but they mainly collect dust. Both books have so much in them and really require a huge dedication to really study and apply.
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JS hi.. Originally Posted by jazzstudent
I'm starting to go through the George Van Eps Method (got it off of djangobooks). It seems like the first few exercises focus on the 1st inversion form of the triads (E G C).
The exercises say to play "in all the keys", but as far as I can tell that is simply moving the same 1st inversion shapes up the neck. Would a good way to do this be by playing down through 4ths? (C F Bb etc?) It seems like if I did every exercise in every key it might take a long time to get through this book
Will the other triad inversions be taught later?
Overall, if you've worked through this book, what would you say you learned from it? I have both Mickey Baker's book and this one and was trying to decide which one I should work through first?
Thanks!
the baker book #1 is an intro into basic jazz chords and their application but even at that as baker says do one lesson a week..(there are 52 lessons I believe) THEN start from lesson one again as if you have not read the book..so in essence..its a TWO year study..if you finish it you will have a basic foundation in jazz playing..
Van Epps is a very advanced approach and requires ALOT of practice of the lessons..and yes Do Them In ALL Keys..the logic for doing so is this:
you will feel comfortable in EVERY position in EVERY key..thus the feeling of being "lost" is removed from your playing
you will begin to hear melodic passages that connect from different keys..which is how most melodies and their harmony are created..trust me this works
this will be a very helpful tool in creating chord melodies in ANY key and your knowledge of the fretboard and chord creation and use will increase immensely..and your development of moving voices will make much more sense..you will see and hear chords in a very different way
this all requires dedication on your part...look at it this way..In three years you can be very far away from where you are now..or just a few steps...three years is going to pass either way..
Just my take..hope it helps
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Originally Posted by wolflen
I agree totally with your take. And if three years doesn't pass, and I do before it does, well, I won't know. But I'll sure know that I didn't put the time in if I am still here. So, I'm going for it.
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Nice playing and tone Rob, thanks for posting......I went and had a look on your GVE clips
and think that I'll put the book back on my "current stuff" pile.
BTW I don't think anyone has mentioned that Jim Hall worked with the older Van Eps book.
From an interview in Guitar Player magazine [May 1983]
Q: "Were there any books you especially benefited from ?"
A: "I worked quite a bit with The George Van Eps Guitar method - the one about the harmonized triad.
I'm still using voicings I discovered through some of the book's exercises"
......Then there are 3 examples, the first is a series of 3 note diatonic 4th structures in D dorian.
1] xx001x xx223x xx345x xx556x ......harmonizing the top note C - D - E -F etc
2] xx241x xx353x xx575x xx796x different structures but harmonizing same notes as in ex 1
3] xxo41x xx253x xx375x xx596x ditto
I don't recall seeing 4th structures or other unusual forms like in 2 & 3 above in the GVE book.
Probably Jim's extrapolations ...... he was nothing if not creative and resourceful.
So the takeaway here [for me] is that you can get a lot more out of any book/vid etc by taking the ideas and
working with them in a way that pleases you.
Like Rob did in his excellent example.
You can't just get a book and expect that it will show you everything ....invest yourself in it....if you
get one good idea that becomes part of your thing .....you're golden.
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Originally Posted by jazzstudent
I'm starting to go through the George Van Eps Method (got it off of djangobooks). It seems like the first few exercises focus on the 1st inversion form of the triads (E G C).
The exercises say to play "in all the keys", but as far as I can tell that is simply moving the same 1st inversion shapes up the neck. Would a good way to do this be by playing down through 4ths? (C F Bb etc?) It seems like if I did every exercise in every key it might take a long time to get through this book
Will the other triad inversions be taught later?
Overall, if you've worked through this book, what would you say you learned from it? I have both Mickey Baker's book and this one and was trying to decide which one I should work through first?
Thanks!
I recently bought this book online, and it has been getting digitally dusty. Your post got me thinking though......I think that many of us feel the way you do. So I took the first voicing, put it on all the different string sets and then through 12 keys. Then I took the first one on the string-set 643, and put it into the tune 500 Miles High....a tune I have been working on with a jazz workshop combo and as solo guitar. Then I tried it on other string sets. It sounds great when you put it off the upper extensions for the tune. (I think this is similar to a concept that JordanKlemons posted a while back.)
So doing it this way helped me stay focused and patient, even though I haven't really got past the first voicing! LOL Thx for helping me out by discussing what others might be embarrassed to state out loud!
Last edited by srlank; 12-04-2015 at 09:10 PM.
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So a couple of ways to use this method. One is to use rest strokes with the pick, metronome very slow 40-50 bpm, while singing the name if each note. After a year of doing this you will own the notes of the fingerboard. Second take any triad any inversion on the first three strings of the guitar then play a bass note within reach on the 6th or 5th string and name the chord. For example D major triad Bb in bass= Bbma7#5. Go through all the bass notes chromatically, with the same triad,name the chords, keep the ones you like. For me this excercise heightened my awareness of the building blocks of the chords, what tones are truly neccesary for a specific harmonic function, it also helped my chord melody approach a lot and helped to get away from thinking chord shapes and more toward hearing harmonic function of tension and resolution and voicing chords in a more fun and interesting way. Third the excercises for harmonic minor are the ones that really opened my ears. The method is a lifelong endeavour.
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I'm giving this thread a bump to share a "new" Van Eps track that I discovered a few weeks ago. I heard this Jo Stafford take on Walkin' My Baby Back Home and recognized George Van Eps when he took a solo at 1:30. George,plectrum, acoustic archtop. To me, it doesn't get any better.
Enjoy,
Jerome
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Ha, that was great. Great song, fine singing, excellent band arrangement, and George proves once again, there was no one playing like him then or now. You can hear his Method at work.
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I just this week picked up an e-book edition of this book from Djangobooks for ten dollars. I was wondering the same thing about triad on the 6th degree (AFC, rather than the expected ACE).
As for the legato practice, that will take some time. I never thought about forming a chord shape while moving my hand from one chord to the next. (My hand may do this without me thinking of it.)
Speaking of this book, I'm not at all sure I understand what he (GVE) means by his instruction on how to hold a pick. (I'm not looking to change my grip but I would like to know whether I understand what he recommends.)
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Hi Mark,
I have my copy here at my desk. He's basically advocating a "standard grip" with the RH fingers relaxed with the center of the wrist above the highest voice in the chord. Not a "fist grip". Enough room to hold a broom handle at the same time as the pick.
Regards,
Jerome
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Thanks, Jerome. I can't help thinking that is odd, saying where to locate the center (-or "axis", as he puts it) of your wrist while picking. Who orients from the center of the wrist? Originally Posted by monk
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Hi Mark,
The wrist joint is somewhat similar to a universal joint. It moves up, down and side to side as well as rotates. For me, the axis of the wrist is the center of the joint where the motion originates. I admit to being confused myself the first time I read the GVEGM many years ago.
Regards,
Jerome
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What's the deal with Ex 10? That fingering of a D minor triad at the 10th fret with fingers 4 (D), 2 (A note on B string), 3 (F note on G string) puzzles me. It's not especially hard, I can't help singing "It's gettin' mighty crowded" when I play it. It's not even that that is difficult but it seems defiantly over-complicated. What am I missing?
(I'm familiar with the Betty Everett version of this song but it seems slow after hearing this one and has less punch.)
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I've been working through George Van Eps guitar method book for the past while now and I just had a quick question about how the major and minor scales are harmonised. The harmonised major scale in the book (Ex.1) is more or less first inversion triads across the board, bar the sixth scale degree.
MAJOR SCALE: I(1) ii(1) iii(1) IV(1) V(1) IV(2) vii(1)
However the minor scales(Ex.26) seem to be harmonised differently and I'm not sure I fully grasp the reasoning behind this.
MINOR SCALE: i(1) vii(2) i(2) iv dim(1) i(R) bvi dim(1) vii(1)
I was hoping someone here would be able to explain the logic behind this. Hope I'm making some sense here and not just raving.
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Hi Yomguitar,
The harmonization of the minor triads is essentially: i, V7. i, V7, etc.
The minor is functioning as a tonic and the diminished chords are functioning as the V7b9.
Regards,
Jerome
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Hi. I'm studying the George Van Eps' Guitar method and i can't understand the exs. 33 & 34.
Specifically i can't understand the chord progressions ... can you help me?
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Hi Fra88, Ex 33 & 34 are just dominant 7th chords basically. Originally Posted by Fra88
For example, the first chord in Ex 33 is a D7 (D, F#, A, C) with the 3rd (F#) on the E string, b7 (C) on the A string and either the root (D) or the 9th (E) on the D string. So you can play either a D7 or D9 chord with this fingering.
G:
D: R OR 9
A: b7
E: 3
The next chord is also D7 except you have the b7 (C) on the A string, 3rd (F#) on the D string and either the 5th (A) or the 13th (B) on the G string. You can play either a D7 or D13 chord with this fingering.
G: 5 OR 13
D: 3
A: b7
E:
All of the other chord fingerings in this exercise are one of these two shapes (the D7/D9 shape or the D7/D13 shape).
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