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Hi, I'm studying theory but also am always working on tunes, so I do a lot of research trying to find the right voicings for the music. That takes me well ahead of my current knowledge...
Anyway, why does music specify 13th notation instead of 6th? Is it because that amount of distance between the notes is wanted, or the 13th is wanted on top (if so what about inversions), or because it also implies dom 7th is included...just wondering.
Sometimes I see a voicing with the key note way up where I can't hardly reach it, when I could do it an octave down, like I saw that with a Cmaj9 with the 9th way up on the 1st string.
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06-24-2011 12:57 PM
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Anyway, why does music specify 13th notation instead of 6th? Is it because
that amount of distance between the notes is wanted, or the 13th is wanted on
top (if so what about inversions), or because it also implies dom 7th is
included...just wondering.
and has 1 3 5 b7 9 11 and the 13th in it
not enough strings eh ?
luckily we can leave out lots of these notes and still create a good effect
it depends on the context of the tune and youre taste as to what you leave out
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Yes, the chord symbol G13 is a dominant 7th chord quality...
G B D F A E (normally the 11th is omitted and often the ninth is ommited also to make it G B D F E, and often the 5th is ommited as in G B F A E)
A 6th chord is a major chord with a 6th added, G6 = G B D E
Do the Amazon 'Look Inside' feature of this book, it has a good three page explanation of chord spellings:
Amazon.com: Joe Pass Guitar Style (9780739018651): Joe Pass: Books
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Originally Posted by fep
oh, that's a great chart in there.
I see I was getting the chord mixed up with the interval.
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the joe pass chord book is a great one to go through...
less theory and more applied ...play first-analyze later..
time on the instrument..pierre
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What I thought up to now was that a 13th was just a major triad with a 13th slapped on it. But it's packed full of other stuff, too, though books I've seen up to know don't come out and say it. It was only working through some of the chord reduction exercises in a swing rhythm book that made me wonder, why a dom 7th would work in place of a 13th.
I've bought so many books already, now there's more? lol
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A 13th chord is a Dom7 with the 6th added.
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Originally Posted by brwnhornet59
Otherwise it'd be a dom7/6 --no?
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You can technically add the 9th, 11th as well as the 13th. But any one of those three is enough to call it a 9th, 11th, 13th chord in conjunction with the Dom 7. The reason that this chord is called a 13th is because of the presence of the b7th. That is all. If the b7th was not present, then it would be a 6 chord. The same holds true with the 2/9, 4/11, it all depends on the b7th as to what it is called. Remember there is a Major 7th as well. Meaning you can have a Major 9th, Major 11th, Major 13th. That is the name when a Major 7th is present. Make sense?
Last edited by brwnhornet59; 06-25-2011 at 09:49 PM.
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The 11th is almost always omitted on a 13th chord. It's true we don't have enough strings/fingers but more importantly it generally changes the quality of the chord to sound like a sus4 chord.
If I was writing a chart and wanted the 4th (11th) and the 13th I would us the chord symbol F13sus4 like the chord near the end of 'A Child is Born'; and this chord would have no 3rd.
Also note that the third is omitted from most 11th chords, that's the sound most of us associate with an 11th chord.
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Fep is right of course. However I have a certain affinity to several #11 sounds that include the 3rd. See if you like them to.
[CHORD] AMaj7 #11
||---|---|---|-1--|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-1--|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|----|---|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|----|---|---|-4-|---|---|---|---|
|o|--|---|---|----|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|x|--|---|---|----|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
[/CHORD]
[CHORD]
AMaj 7 #11
5th fret
||---|---|---|---|-3--|---|---|---|---|---|--|
||---|---|---|---|-3--|---|---|---|---|---|--|
||---|---|---|-2-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|o|--|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|x|--|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
[/CHORD]
[CHORD]
Amaj7 #11
|o|--|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|-3--|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|--|
||-2-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||-2-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|o|--|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|x|--|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
[/CHORD]
[CHORD]
AMaj7 #11
|x|--|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|-4--|---|---|---|---|--|
||---|---|---|---|---|-3--|---|---|---|---|--|
|x|--|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-2-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
[/CHORD]Last edited by brwnhornet59; 06-25-2011 at 08:09 PM.
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Originally Posted by brwnhornet59
Like, for a G13----D string 3rd fret-G string 4th fret, B string 5th fret, E string 5th fret. Giving you the b7,3,13,and 9 (F,B,E,A).
See-the question is "why 13, and not 6th", to which I always answer that, in theory, a 13th is constructed 1,3,5,b7,9,11,13--stacking 3rds. And as Fep says- a 6 chord is including a 6 note in a triad- which is different.
Am I wrong?
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Originally Posted by brwnhornet59
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Agreed Fep. However i will play #11 like a sus#4 as well. But the 3rd should always be there, (Bass etc..).
Bill, Sure, that's one way to do it. You are spelling a rootless, (no G), inversion. It will work functionally fine. Is this what you are looking for?
Remember, efficient movement is best. So rather than try and throw every note possible, go with the least. 1, 3, 5, b7, 13 will do it, but it is not hard throwing in the 9.
[CHORD] G 13 This includes the root, 7, 3, 13, 9. In that order
||---|---|----|---|---|-4--|---|---|---|---|--|
||---|---|----|---|---|-4--|---|---|---|---|--|
||---|---|----|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-2--|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|----|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-1--|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
[/CHORD]Last edited by brwnhornet59; 06-25-2011 at 08:59 PM.
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Also
[CHORD]
G13 Root , 3, 7, 13, 9
8th fret
||---|----|---|-4--|---|---|---|---|---|---|-|
||---|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|-2-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|x|--|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
[/CHORD]
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Originally Posted by billkath
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No-I'm fine -it was Carol I was worrying about. I was worried that if she just read your answer --"A 13th chord is a Dom7 with the 6th added" --to her post it might confuse her, or not enlighten her to the way a 13th is constructed in theory, and how it can be practically be voiced on the guitar. The 4 note rootless inversion example I gave might not come to mind in a learner if they just looked at a 13 chord purely as a dom7 with a 6th added-even though I know what you mean.
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Also Bill, if you notice your Rootless inversion, F B E A, is an exact image of my example #3 for a Maj7#11. In this case it is FMaj7#11. See it? Here that tritone? It sounds so cool. Yet you were spelling out a G13 with no root.
Now we start talking about triad pairing to get these extended sounds. Great stuff!!!Last edited by brwnhornet59; 06-25-2011 at 09:08 PM.
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Originally Posted by brwnhornet59
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Originally Posted by CarolM
----x-------------x----------------------------
----8-------------5----------------------------
----9-------------4----------------------------
----9-------------3----------------------------
----8-------------x----------------------------
----x-------------3----------------------------
Last edited by fep; 06-26-2011 at 11:12 AM.
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You can play the chord any way that your ear accepts. But by taking the b7 out and moving the 6th down an octave, it becomes a 6/9 chord. Nothing wrong with that. It is still implying the right idea. There are no wrong chords when it comes to what your ears like. Dropping the b7 will hurt nothing. You do lose some tension, but the world will still keep spinning. =)
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You guys need to be a little careful if you start using these versions of notation off this sight... There are standard implications from notation... not just what we want. The reason we notate changes is to give information as to what's going on harmonically. Rarely does a chord symbol simply mean a voicing, voice leading or only one chord. When we want a specific voicing or lead line.... we write it out. But "chord patterns"... do have standard harmonic implications.
And just because we don't know or are unaware of those harmonic implications, ( what the changes imply), doesn't make what we hear or like correct... It's our job as jazz players to be aware of those implications... our ears need to be educated... they don't come with all the software... If we're going to play around with changes... we need to be aware of where they come from so when we sub or re-harm, we keep the original tonal or harmonic implications in perspective. Or not...
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Originally Posted by brwnhornet59
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Originally Posted by JakeAcci
Last edited by brwnhornet59; 06-27-2011 at 02:14 PM.
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Originally Posted by brwnhornet59
Moffa Mithra
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