Anybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?

[driskel]

...
When Mick was still writing the book, he gave me a formula and the way to put it together, just as an idea. I spent that summer in the desert in Nevada with a notebook just unravelling numbers and notes for hours. It was incredibly meditative and amazing. I started to see patterns emerging about the interrelationships of chordal groupings...
David

David, I just spent about 10 hours on vacation doing the same, with the Natural and Melodic Minor scales writing out the cycles in Drop 2 for 7th's chords. I plan on doing more of the same for drop 3, drop 2 and 4, etc... In all keys. It will take some time, but what a great way to drill chord construction and chord to note(s).

As a beginner to this, taking on a monk like behavior, putting pen to paper starts to really show the patterns. As a recommendation to all. If doing this add the interval number of the note in chord, next to the letter. It will really show the voice leading/to drop chord inversion relationships in the movement.

Thanks for your time.

[TH]

David, I just spent about 10 hours on vacation doing the same, with the Natural and Melodic Minor scales writing out the cycles in Drop 2 for 7th's chords. I plan on doing more of the same for drop 3, drop 2 and 4, etc... In all keys. It will take some time, but what a great way to drill chord construction and chord to note(s).

As a beginner to this, taking on a monk like behavior, putting pen to paper starts to really show the patterns. As a recommendation to all. If doing this add the interval number of the note in chord, next to the letter. It will really show the voice leading/to drop chord inversion relationships in the movement.

Thanks for your time.

Yes, doing this in long hand really makes you realize the melodic and canonic potential of the material. Not that you don't get that from working with the book but writing it out gave me time to think about what was happening. Working with it after that had a whole different dimension.

I found that even used as a guide to connecting one individual chord to another, the cycles can be used very effectively within a tonal situation, which is something that's not always apparent when confronted with an entire cycle. There is more than one way to get to a chord who's root is a fourth away. You can voice lead a line and when the line converges with the next given chord in a set of changes, you can rejoin the cadence of the written piece at that point.
Any one working along these lines?

Who else is needing material from the Almanacs? Contact me in a private message with your email and I'll attach some pages of cycles we can all work with.

David

[driskel]

I found that even used as a guide to connecting one individual chord to another, the cycles can be used very effectively within a tonal situation, which is something that's not always apparent when confronted with an entire cycle. There is more than one way to get to a chord who's root is a fourth away. You can voice lead a line and when the line converges with the next given chord in a set of changes, you can rejoin the cadence of the written piece at that point.
Any one working along these lines?

David

This was one of my observations and a new point of study for me on the subject.

Thank you to all for this thread.

[TH]

For anyone who has expressed interest in getting some material for you (us) to work on, and if you haven't heard from me, contact me using the Private Messages function here and send me your e-mail address. If it's gmail, even better since I'm using Google drive these days. I think it's finally working.
Let me know which volume(s) you'd be interested in jumping into and I'll send you materials we can all use in common. A starter kit of sorts. If you've sent me a message before and haven't gotten an invite to my Google drive, please forgive me and send me another communique. Emails and E-fails have a way of opening up cracks things can fall into.

Here's a little something I'll share from an upcoming project. It's Mick's thoughts from a while ago, on the topic of these Voice Leading Almanacs:

It's like having a complete deck of cards for the first time. In other words, any 4 part chord that can happen within a major scale or a melodic minor or harmonic minor is in there and all the voicings of it that are possible are there. So there isn't anything involving 4 part chords diatonically that's not in there potentially. So the potential, assuming you can learn it in other keys is enormous. So why should I... I couldn't...

I could probably give some examples like : Let's take All The Things You Are and I'm going to use triad over bass note 1 with this kind of voice leading because it starts off going cycle 4. You could do that and give examples and that would be fine, but I'm not concerned about that. I'm much more concerned about having [drummer/pianist who worked with the Alamanac] Peter Erskine get the book and immediately go to the piano. He takes volume 2, takes the spread clusters that are the last ones there, in harmonic minor and starts playing them slowly on the piano.
That's what I'm concerned with because then, you don't have to say anything. They know what to do with it.

...[it's] just a tool. For me, it's the sounds. The sounds! Just hits! I've never heard this before. I've never played this before. I've never heard this what is that? There was something about the way the voices move where it's actually, in many cases one long melody that's moving 4 at a time that makes it sound the way it does, that was so intriguing to me...

-Mick Goodrick -from when he was writing the books from a conversation in 2003

I hope we can get some sounds into the collective consciousness here. ' have some real fun...
David

[driskel]

As a quick note/update.

I took the A Section of Autumn Leaves (Gmin) and using the Almanac approach found really smooth voice leading approach in drop 3 (root, 1st, 2nd and 3rd inversions). Very interesting stuff here. I can't wait to catch up.

I will post later if anyone is interested.

Michael

[e_del]

hi David,

from what you (and Mick) wrote, one thing to remember is that those almanacs aren't in a difficulty order... just grouped by "common use", right?
Usually one learn/play triads first, then tetrads, then other structures, and this is the book order, but there's no (or few) contrary side effects in starting e.g. with triad-over-bass structure...

[TH]

No, on the contrary, there's something wonderfully child like in the non heirarchical nature of that material. So you skim through, find something that says "Whoa! Unbelievable" and you work with that sound until it creeps into a solo situation, or you are inspired to compose that sound into a piece, or you make it fluid enough to work it into another cycle of different nature.
I was into 4 part 7th chords and I took a "peek" into the hybrids. The sounds were so compelling that I wanted to stay a while, and I realized I would not gain anything personally by going through in the conventional order. Even triads, spread triads are simple but strangely beautiful in unexpected ways.

I will say you should have a good working knowledge of inside harmony if you're going to use this over standards, so you can appreciate when things converge and diverge from harmonic movement of a given piece, and for me, when to intersect the line of harmony as a cadence approaches. For me, at least, to ignore important markers like modulations, cadences, etc, is to play dangerously with chaos. But who knows what I'll think when I can really play...!

David

[mikostep]

I've been working on some material from one of micks books lately. It makes me say wow at least 10 times a day because it helps me sort thing in my head that I learned previously. It helps me conect my knowledge, like universal musical glue. My playing is getting more melodic sense, fretboard is much clearer now, I can hear notes. All because of cycles. Wow!
And there's more. I'm trying to connect everything with factorial rhythm and the things get realty funny.

[driskel]

I've been working on some material from one of micks books lately. It makes me say wow at least 10 times a day because it helps me sort thing in my head that I learned previously. It helps me conect my knowledge, like universal musical glue. My playing is getting more melodic sense, fretboard is much clearer now, I can hear notes. All because of cycles. Wow!
And there's more. I'm trying to connect everything with factorial rhythm and the things get realty funny.

I agree, I still do not have much to offer in terms of discussion, but I agree completely with your comments regarding melodic sense and opening up the understanding of the fretboard.

Thanks for keeping this thread alive.

[TH]

There are a few projects very close to being launched. First, if anyone has any advice or experience in self publishing, please do share. I'm interested.
You know the factorial rhythms books, well there's a part two. That's done and ready to go.
The Falling Grace project is also very close to completion. Swallow was just in town and the two of them got together, enthusiastically discussing that project.
I continue to collect conversations and stories of music, adventure and discovery to be put into the collection. I'm next going to ask about things he hasn't needed to think about, getting to the roots and fundamentals of music and guitar. Things like "How important is speed and how have you looked at that over the years? How do you see the connection of harmonic areas? If you could teach the guitar from the ground up, knowing all you know now, how would the priorities and the order of things be different?... " that kind of stuff.
Oh yeah, when the book with Tim came out, there was about 60 pages of really interesting stuff, some of it pretty out, that was not included due to the page limit imposed by Berklee Press. If we start an online publishing entity, or do a downloadable project similar to shareware, and if Tim is amenable then we may finally see that.

So stay tuned. Oh and by the way, on the topic of How Would You Teach Harmony Differently? I was really surprized to hear him say "Don't teach it from being the 3 scales modal approach, I'd have everyone learn 5 chord types first. Right from the beginning." Heh, yes an interesting discussion for sure.
He's very interested in knowing what we turn up in this group.
More ongoing. Yeah thanks for keeping the thread growing!
David

[marcwhy]

Thanks for the updates, David! Can't wait for the Falling Grace variations ..

[jeromesteele]

Thanks again, David, for generously sharing this wonderful stuff with us. It continually inspires me.

[Toddep]

Thanks for the great news David...Sure looking forward to it...

[TH]

Hey guys. I've decided to collect questions to ask Mick. Questions of the most fundamental nature: How do you look at speed? What is your picture of the fingerboard? How do you see the heirarchy of things a guitarist must know and how important is the order? What makes a good solo? How do ideas come to you and how are they realized? Do you think visually? How much in advance do you hear a line? ...that kind of stuff.
It's going to be a book of "Mick Goodrick looks back in time and gives advice to his young self" kind of book. I've begun a question forum in another thread. Mick is up for it.
SO many book projects. And here's one of great interest. He wants to take the monster first and second volumes and repackage them into more user friendly formats, with explanations, examples maybe, a clearer sense of some ways this material can be attacked in better bite sized pieces. I told him I'd get ideas from your thread-sters. What do you guys think? How might you attack or process the raw material of the almanacs so they can present the bridge to practical music easier?

Looked at the unpublished material from the Modal Compression book, about another 100 pages. Let's hope Tim is amenable.

We're excited about using some self publish services. The rhythm book is called Repeat After Me.... or RAM as it will be known. It's got his artwork in it too. Cool. Rhythmic patterns that repeat but in such a way that you don't know where the 1 is but it's solid too. Amazing compositional potential for the rhythmic challenging lot of you.
Please keep the experiences coming as well as the questions. This is the only meeting place on the planet for discussion and digesting of this material. Let's share in the treasures.
David

[mikostep]

SO many book projects. And here's one of great interest. He wants to take the monster first and second volumes and repackage them into more user friendly formats, with explanations, examples maybe, a clearer sense of some ways this material can be attacked in better bite sized pieces. I told him I'd get ideas from your thread-sters. What do you guys think? How might you attack or process the raw material of the almanacs so they can present the bridge to practical music easier?

To tell you the truth I'm enjoying the volume 3 as it is, without explanations. It makes me think about everything and I really enjoy what I hear.
On the other side, what about things that Mick could suggest that I would not think in a zillion years?
So, to bring this to people I think it should include visual component, guitarist are visually oriented. When I play, if I hear for example C then I visualy see it on fretboard and all the shapes around it.
It should include examples how to connect things. Maybe best trough standards, blues...
Offcourse, explanations of those terms like msrp... in depth. I think I'm missing something there.
That's for now.

[e_del]

Wow, been on holiday for a while, and now I find the thread way ahead since...

While recollecting some of the pending thoughts I'd add one that maybe I still have written about before.
Talking about "How Would You Teach Harmony Differently", I had a "a-ha!" moment some years ago when I looked at how I learnt harmony.
I started as usual with major scale, and modes, then melodic minor came, and eventually harmonic minor, with some sparkles on harmonic major.
These latter scales seem more difficult to "digest", but in the end I realised it's a matter of how much time you spend on them
Major scale is easier to me because I worked on it much more time than the others, and there's no "physical" reason that makes one scale more difficult than another.
They are different "pitch collections", but they take no different effort for my fingers to play one or another.

So here's my thought: instead of going through the man/min mel/min har/maj had/ steps, wouldn't it be more effective to learn the scales/modes as derivation of e.g. the major scale?
After learning the Ionian scale, go to the one-alterations available, thus getting the Mixolydian (b7), the Lydian (#11), but also the melodic minor (b3), that normally would pop out more late... then pass to the two-alterations, obtaining Dorian (b3,b7), Lydian dominant(#11, b7), Mixolydian b6 (b6, b7), etc... then 3 alterations, and so on...

In the end the result should be a new learning path that at the prgressively explores sounds that normally would have been discovered in very distant moments...

For older people, like me, it's hard to throw away the actual knowledge and restart studying this new way.
The earlier you start (and continue), the more effective it will be. One problem I see in such approach is that it completely twists the learning path of a student, and since it takes many years, there's the problem of confindence in "being doing the right thing", and not being wasting precious learning time...

These are just my mumblings.. but I'd like to know what Mick thinks about...

[Gearhead]

This sounds awesome, guys. I'm in!

[TH]

Things are going to get very interesting in the voice leading world. Mick is in the process of taking material from volume 1 and volume 2 and creating 6 smaller books, up to about 150 pages, with commentary and a way to go about processing this material in chunks.
There will also be the new rhythms patterns book.
And the Falling Grace book. And Questions with an Amateur, an in depth exploration of the most fundamental topics. And My 15 Minutes of Fame, the autographical essays and anecdotes book.
The workbook of Voice leading is also an exciting project and that's the one that you especially will be instrumental in putting together. So please keep teasing wonder, practical ideas, discussions about interpretation, impressions and results and frustrations about these voice leading approaches.

It's almost as if anyone could take 2 pages of this stuff, make their own world out of it (the way people have made their lives out of drop 2 root on 5 or 6) and still never be mistaken for anyone else. It can be that easy. The books are scary that way sometimes, there's this feeling that you're let loose on a whole new continent means that you have to explore the whole thing. No. You can homestead your own little patch and build connections from there.
I want to know your thoughts as I form a "tourist guide" of Goodchord voice leading.

I have an abstract question for you guys, maybe we might discuss this in Private Messages: Do you think there'd be any interest in a 1 or 2 week workshop/camp at Berklee in Boston during some Summer devoted to working with Mick with things like private instruction, group classes on all aspects of playing dynamics, voice leading classes and discussions, concerts, exploring free improv with art, opening up your rhythmic possibilities, and other stuff? And of course the greatest resource, meeting other people and sharing in a community of explorers who would like the rare chance to make real the things hinted at in these new projects.

Just a question thrown out there.
Thanks
David

[yaclaus]

I managed to get vol. 1 and 2 through my library. I would love to show you stuff from the books if it is not too much of a legal problem. Now if only someone could explain me in very simple terms how to utilize the book

[driskel]

Things are going to get very interesting in the voice leading world. Mick is in the process of taking material from volume 1 and volume 2 and creating 6 smaller books, up to about 150 pages, with commentary and a way to go about processing this material in chunks.
There will also be the new rhythms patterns book.
And the Falling Grace book. And Questions with an Amateur, an in depth exploration of the most fundamental topics. And My 15 Minutes of Fame, the autographical essays and anecdotes book.
The workbook of Voice leading is also an exciting project and that's the one that you especially will be instrumental in putting together. So please keep teasing wonder, practical ideas, discussions about interpretation, impressions and results and frustrations about these voice leading approaches.

It's almost as if anyone could take 2 pages of this stuff, make their own world out of it (the way people have made their lives out of drop 2 root on 5 or 6) and still never be mistaken for anyone else. It can be that easy. The books are scary that way sometimes, there's this feeling that you're let loose on a whole new continent means that you have to explore the whole thing. No. You can homestead your own little patch and build connections from there.
I want to know your thoughts as I form a "tourist guide" of Goodchord voice leading.

Thanks
David

David, all of this is very exciting. If this comes to fruition, you can guarantee that I will purchase the lot. Please reserve me a full set I have hard copies now of Vol 2, Factorial Rhythms. Vol 1 is on the way soon.

This thread has opened my eyes to world of harmony and voice leading that I was not aware of to discover on my own.

As a beginner, what I think would be helpful in the workbook, would be a getting up to speed/prerequisites section. The out of print books are not for beginners, yet the content has done so much for me all ready, it just requires that I take time away from these to go pick up the missing pieces. When I joined this thread, you pointed out to me, harmony concepts, voicings, etc... that would make this material more tangible. You pointers have help immensely.

Thank you for the update.

[JohnoL]

Things are going to get very interesting in the voice leading world. Mick is in the process of taking material from volume 1 and volume 2 and creating 6 smaller books, up to about 150 pages, with commentary and a way to go about processing this material in chunks.

I am interested. There is a good chance I will purchase these books when available in case Mick needs any motivation.

[marcwhy]

I have an abstract question for you guys, maybe we might discuss this in Private Messages: Do you think there'd be any interest in a 1 or 2 week workshop/camp at Berklee in Boston during some Summer devoted to working with Mick with things like private instruction, group classes on all aspects of playing dynamics, voice leading classes and discussions, concerts, exploring free improv with art, opening up your rhythmic possibilities, and other stuff? And of course the greatest resource, meeting other people and sharing in a community of explorers who would like the rare chance to make real the things hinted at in these new projects.

Just a question thrown out there.
Thanks
David

Uh, are you kidding?! The "summer band camp" with Mick a few years ago was priceless for me. Sign me up!

Marc

[TH]

I mentioned you when I proposed this to Mick. I dare say it was a life memory for everyone that went to that camp.
You will be kept current of all developments.
David

[zirenius]

Dear David!

that sounds brilliant! Please keep my posted about the new material, I would be glad to have it all!! :-)

About the workshop - as I am from Germay, that would require some logistic thinking on my side,but I would definitely try to make it work.

Also, did you receive my private message about the workbook idea?

All the best,
Sebastian

[TH]

Slow.
That's the theme of a discussion I recently had with 2 friends working with the first two volumes.
Goodchord material can be different from "grab and plug" playing that seems to be SOP in many circles. It's about hearing differently, finding a new causality that guides the movement of your fingers, and letting your ear really be a player in the creative process.

Some things to try out (Thanks Kenji and Sung-Ho):

Find cycles that have particular movements in the upper voice, and use them to create a melodic line as chord solo. You needn't necessarily think "inside the harmonic box" of the piece, the top voice movement creates the determining factor. Once you figure out how to converge with a chord within the piece, it becomes an amazing "substitution".
In other words use the cycles from the top voice down.

Another one: Pick a cycle, scale, voicing, page, etc... and work your way through the cycle with each chord being the basis for a short improvisation. Chord. Improvisation. Next chord. Improvisation.
It will make you very aware of the very subtle shifts of mood from one chord to another. It's also really good for the ear.

Remember and keep in mind that the ear has its own speed. You cannot anticipate nor force the amount of time that it takes for this material to become "useful." If you work with one sound/cycle relentlessly and consistently, you will have no idea of how long it takes for it to turn from a solid novel block of ice into something you can shape, use and get musical value from. Patience and knowing how to open your ears is a key to unlocking the material.
At some point, you will find those two pages you have been working with will find their way into your playing. A tiny bit at a time. A little more... you will develop parts of your vocabulary... you will see that cycle completely transformed by the use of the familiar with a new chord scale form...

Try these things out, and drop your own contributions into this discussion.
Thanks
David