Overtone Series

[bobsguitars09]

When you play a C Major scale. what overtone notes are coming through on each note?

[matt.guitarteacher]

Every pitch has certain overtones. I don't quite understand why you would want to talk about it in the context of a series of pitches and all of those corresponding overtones. I don't remember much about overtones, but they're pretty much the same for all pitches, aside from accounting for particular octaves (maybe). Aren't they?

I think for any pitch there's something like an overtone an octave above, then a 5th above that, etc... I think if the purpose of the question were a little clearer you might get more responses.

Anyway. Good luck.

[Spirit59]

Overtones, partials and harmonic series is very concisely explained here, starting at approximately 3:38:

[matt.guitarteacher]

Overtones, partials and harmonic series is very concisely explained here, starting at approximately 3:38:

Thanks, dude. Crystal clear, now.

[paynow]

Overtones, partials and harmonic series is very concisely explained here, starting at approximately 3:38:

That is HILARIOUS. I pulled a muscle laughing at this. Great stuff man. Thanks!

[docbop]

When you play a C Major scale. what overtone notes are coming through on each note?

you familiar with the Overtone scale (AKA Lydian b7) it is suppose to match the overtone series.

[randalljazz]

The Overtone Series

Overtone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


and so on...

[czardas]

This is going back a few years, but I once made two monochords with movable frets to test intervals in Just Intonation (Kind of - all notes except the tritone were based on note frequencies from the overtone series). Although the design was very crude (frets were made from coat hanger wire), it was most enriching to hear the flavour of these natural notes interacting.

[JonR]

When you play a C Major scale. what overtone notes are coming through on each note?

Quite a lot, although in equal temperament, none except octaves (of each note) are in tune.

As matt.guitarteacher says, every pitch has its own overtone series, and all are multiples of the basic (fundamental) frequency.

So a middle C of 261.63 Hz (cycles per second) has overtones as follows:

2x = 523.25 (C)
3x = 784.88 (G, about 2 cents sharp of an equal tempered G)
4x = 1046.50 (C)
5x = 1308.13 (roughly E, about 14 cents flat of ET)
6x = 1569.76 (G, about 2 cents sharp again)
7x = 1831.38 (something like Bb, 31 cents flat of an ET Bb)
8x = 2093.00 (C again)
9x = 2354.63 (D, about 4 cents sharp)
10x = 2616.25 (another 14-cent flat E)
11x = 2877.88 (exactly in between F and F#, just 1 cent closer to F#)
12x = 3139.50 (G, 2 cents sharp)
13x = 3401.13 (about 40 cents sharp of Ab)
14x = 3662.75 (31 cents flat of Bb, again)
15x = 3924.38 (12 cents flat of B)
16x = 4186.01 (C)

1 cent = 1/100 of a half-step. (Figures have been rounded to 2 decimal places.)

That takes you up to the highest C on a grand piano, so higher notes are not too relevant (the series goes on beyond there, of course, but high overtones are increasingly faint and insignificant).
(And dont forget every note in the scale has its own series: eg the tempered E above middle C is 329.63, and its overtones are all multiples of that; none coincide with the 5x and 10x overtones of C, although our ears are forgiving enough to recognise the affinity. We have a "threshold of tolerance" of out-of-tuneness, which is what enables equal temperament to be acceptable. And I guess some people have a bigger threshold than others...)

The notes of a major triad on C are fairly well represented: the G is near enough in tune, and the E is not too far off for most ears (at least on acoustic instruments not subject to distortion). Beyond there, overtones are not really close enough to tempered notes to draw any conclusions, eg about a "natural overtone scale".
As czardas suggests, some instruments can be tuned to play a scale in "just" intonation, but they will only be fully in tune in one key (the key of the reference note you tune all the others to).
Musicians such as string quartets (and unaccompanied choirs) often tune intuitively to "natural" notes as they play, shifting one way or the other according to the current harmony as the chords change. But pianos - and to a lesser extent guitars - have no such choice.

BTW, on string instruments there is also a factor of "inharmonicity", which makes the math (even) more complicated (the above series is pretty much theoretical only).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inharmonicity
Combine that with the often bizarre way we hear pitch and harmony (eg the proved perception that most people report a slighty too-sharp octave as being "in tune"), and it's quite a mess...

[czardas]

BTW, on string instruments there is also a factor of "inharmonicity", which makes the math (even) more complicated (the above series is pretty much theoretical only).

Never heard of the term "inharmonicity" before. I wonder if it can be calibrated.

[bobsguitars09]

wow! I have a lot to read here! thanks!!

[oldane]

When you play a C Major scale. what overtone notes are coming through on each note?

Maybe we use the word differently, but in my understanding of the word "overtones" it depends on the instrument in question. For example wind instruments with conical bores such as saxophones basically has even numbered overtones (2, 4 etc), while instruments with cylindrical bores such as clarinets has odd numbered overtones (3,5, etc.). And with guitars all kinds of obscure overtones are coming from the various parts of the instrument. I wouldn't dare to estimate the overtones from the metal tailpiece or from the lengths of string between the nut and the tuning pegs, but they are certainly there.

[czardas]

As regards overtones produced by some double reed instruments (oboe if I remember correctly), I once read that the fifth sounds louder than the octave (perhaps someone can confirm this). Pretty strange if you ask me.

[gingerjazz]

For anyone who is really into theory and the overtone series side of things ,try reading Harry partch genesis of a music,but i warn you its heavy reading.

[paynow]

For anyone who is really into theory and the overtone series side of things ,try reading Harry partch genesis of a music,but i warn you its heavy reading.

I keep a list of "books I need to buy" in my browser favorites. That's one of them. I saw a great documentary about Partch that blew me away.

Genesis of a Music, Music Reprint, Harry Partch, Book - Barnes & Noble

Thanks for reminding. I think I'll pull the trigger on this one tomorrow.

[keith]

I haven't seen the Partch book but just finished one entitled " How Music Works " by John Powell ( if my memory is correct ) but it's a short easy to read book that goes over these issues of overtones and temperament and many others. One thing I found interesting in his book was that the ear can discern a note just by the notes' overtone pattern even if the fundamental frequency is absent in the collection of tones! So in JonR's example the middle C will be heard without the 261 HZ tone as long as the other overtones ( ie the multiples of the fundamental ) were present.

[czardas]

One thing I found interesting in his book was that the ear can discern a note just by the notes' overtone pattern even if the fundamental frequency is absent in the collection of tones! So in JonR's example the middle C will be heard without the 261 HZ tone as long as the other overtones ( ie the multiples of the fundamental ) were present.

This is something I have heard of. I thought it was considered to be an attempt by the brain to impose some kind of order on the audio signal it receives. It's as if we fill in the gaps to be able to make sense of the sounds we hear.

[Billnc]

This is something I have heard of. I thought it was considered to be an attempt by the brain to impose some kind of order on the audio signal it receives. It's as if we fill in the gaps to be able to make sense of the sounds we hear.

You are correct, and example is hearing a baritone voice on a phone that doesn't come close to really replicating that pitch.

[czardas]

This is fascinating stuff. It can become quite esoteric when composers make use of such abstract concepts to justify note omissions, or alterations to notes for practical or performance purposes. I think it's quite rare, but it's something I'm aware of.

[gingerjazz]

Hi paynow i have seen some of that documentary on you tube,his instruments are things of beauty ,i wonder if its available on dvd,im off to do a search i will get back to you on that one.

[musicalbodger]

Fascinating stuff that can be allied to the brain's perception of colour. Personally I'll just stick to "acid-skiffle"!

[JonR]

I haven't seen the Partch book but just finished one entitled " How Music Works " by John Powell ( if my memory is correct )

Yes - excellent book:
How Music Works: A listener’s guide to harmony, keys, broken chords, perfect pitch and the secrets of a good tune: Amazon.co.uk: John Powell: Books

[JonR]

For anyone who is really into theory and the overtone series side of things ,try reading Harry partch genesis of a music,but i warn you its heavy reading.

Harry Partch was some kind of genius, but he was seriously mistaken about the nature of musical sound and how we hear it. His thinking was right enough (and usefully thought-provoking) based on the knowledge of the time, but research undertaken since has proved him wrong:
Partch's Errors (that's a slightly OTT polemical critique, but the info is good)
I still like the guy and what he did, but the way the human ear (and mind) perceives music is more mysterious than he could have imagined.

[JonnyPac]

lol I just saw the jazz club clips. Hilarious. Thanks, Spirit!