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I have been getting into the idea of starting to learn the fretboard based on some sort of Fretboard Geometry.
Any good videos/books or advice/secrets on this subject?
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04-12-2011 11:16 PM
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Been there, done that, moved on. In beginning it's kind of interesting, but its usefulness diminishes fast. What I would say that helps is practicing scales in intervals and getting used to the different possible ways to finger intervals is a valuable tool.
I would also say check out Mick Goodrick book The Advancing Guitarist the part on playing on one string. That really starts making things fall in place.
Howard Morgan has a Truefire course that the first part is on viewing the fretboard layout that I found interesting. Especially the part on moving chord shapes across the neck and relation to the B string.Last edited by docbop; 04-13-2011 at 12:37 AM.
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Yeah, I cringe at the word "geometry." Maybe you don't mean it that way, but some people try and look for some DaVinci Code patterns or some crap like that. I think that that should be avoided like the plague. The fretboard should be understood musically, not mathematically.
That being said, it is a very visual instrument. There is some value to seeing shapes, as long as you don't get too carried away with it, as long as you relate it back to something musical.
I don't know what level you are. Learn your scales. Learn your arpeggios - not just as patterns, but what the function of each note is. Learn your chord voicings and learn what function each note has and how it wants to resolve into the next chord. I think that that is a musical way to get going.
Peace,
Kevin
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I agree with Kevin, shapes are good but need to be learned musically you need to learn how the shape sounds how different intervals in the shape sound once you have that connection you can create musical phrases you hear in your head over that shape.
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I agree absolutely with kevin. I'm not accusing the OP of this, but there is a lot of near-mystical crap out there about the "geometry" of the fretboard.
Of course, the patterns are useful in learning the notes, intervals and chords we need. But if we change the tuning, the "geometry" all disappears - while the music remains the same. IOW, the geometry is arbitrary and meaningless.
I don't know the books docbop recommends, but I've seen both commonly recommended elsewhere, particularly Goodrick's. (I didn't know he uses a one-string concept, but I also use that in my teaching, understanding a scale up one string before applying it across the strings.)
Personally, I like the CAGED system. Of course, it depends on standard tuning, like any pattern system, but at least it works from the chord shapes familiar to any beginner - IOW, it has musical meaning, not just a geometrical attraction. (It's how I learned the fretboard, teaching myself, before I realised it was a "system", with a name, and commercial potential... )
Another book I've seen highly recommended - which seems to be in this ballpark - is Ted Greene's Chord Chemistry. I've seen a few pages from it, and, while the info is excellent, the hand-drawn chord diagrams give it a cluttered look which may not be to everyone's taste...Last edited by JonR; 04-13-2011 at 07:27 AM.
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Having read lots of posts since joining up a few weeks ago, I've been playing the major scale in all 12 keys via the cycle of 5ths from first position. Starting with F > Bb > Eb ... etc. I highly recommend this endeavor. This is one-stop-shopping: you get the best left-hand workout while learning all the different patterns/shapes--and the notes if you recite them while you play. It's easy then to apply it to the jazz minor scale... Goodrick's one-string concept (the first skill introduced) is excellent, especially if you record the vamps and play over them... I have one other recommendation to offer: Wayne Krantz: An Improviser's OS. After you read this book and apply his method, you will know the fingerboard inside out.
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Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar
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Originally Posted by markerhodes
But yeah, we should take advantage of what the instrument offers. I always tell students, "The guitar is a very visual instrument - that is a blessing and a curse. It can be a tremendous tool, but can also turn into a crutch if you let it."
Peace,
Kevin
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Learning the fretboard is about geography, not geometry.
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Originally Posted by JonR
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Originally Posted by markerhodes
I'm not opposed to visual aids to understanding, as I said before. That's what CAGED is, eg. The visual white-black pattern of piano keys is a musically meaningful one, too.
It's just that there's some unfortunate connotations to the concept of "geometry", which I've encountered before in reference to the fretboard. There are some people who are fascinated with symmetry and magical kinds of design (triangles, etc), and think they have found something meaningful when they see such shapes on the fretboard. They want (or expect) music to fall into some kind of beautiful geometric arrangement or mystical design - and it doesn't. (Occasionally it might do, but it's generally irrelevant.)
It's a very natural human impulse, to look for patterns, and (often) to see them where there is none.
As kevin says, we can use that sense when learning - and in fact we use it all the time when playing - but we need to understand the musical connections (the patterns in sound and time), and not get distracted by the visual ones.
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Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
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Originally Posted by bobsguitars09
didn't work for me but we all use whatever works for us right ?
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Originally Posted by docbop
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Originally Posted by JonR
If someone is, um, geared that way, there's really no hope for it, is there? If someone is intensely visual, they're going to approach things visually. And why shouldn't they?
Some people---not only engineers---take a very systematic approach to everything, including music, and come up with complex systems for understanding / explaining music. They *want* a system, and if they can't find one handy, they'll make up their own. I say, let 'em. It's how their minds work, and if that gets 'em across the finish line of playing good music, good for them.
Others are theory-averse and feel "boxed in" by overly theoretical approaches and want things to be more "intuitive." If they can play good music that way, good for them.
Though I've never cared to tinker with appliances or cars--or guitars, for that matter--I've learned a lot playing around with riffs, chord changes, voicings, turning play into a song. That's my "briar patch" but it certainly isn't everyone's.
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I took a few lessons with Howard Roberts and studied for a year with Pat Martino who was really big on this but IMO, this type of approach is great after you already have the ability to improvise over standard jazz chord changes. I would not advise beginning players to spend much time on the geometric approach.
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Originally Posted by jzucker
Last edited by jster; 06-21-2011 at 07:44 PM.
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What did the baby tree say to the momma tree?
"Gee, om a tree!"
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Originally Posted by jster
I don't think it is smart to make fretboard geometry the center or total focus of attention though.
I don't even think that Martino really focuses that much on the geometry. He gets all mystical about it but i think he just applies the symmetries on the fretboard to his advantage. He seems to describe everything he does in a mystical way ... Just how he rolls I suppose.
Personally, I think that too much is read into his approach to the freeboard ... iMO It is just positional playing based on minor chord shapes as opposed to major chord shapes. It is like CAGED but more robust and flexible.
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INTERVALS: the Rosetta stone of the fretboard. See/hear them, memorizes the notes and go!
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I think you should learn whatever method fits your style of learning.
Unfortunately because of the western style of education, we are accustomed to learning through pattern recognition and repetition of linear steps, but there are other ways...Just a thought...
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Originally Posted by Jazzaluk
Last edited by Double 07; 06-29-2011 at 05:19 PM.
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just study interval positioning relating to each other, you wont go wrong
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Originally Posted by Anthony7
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Originally Posted by sc06yl
naming chords?
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