Alt Chords

[zap98]

The alt chord concept confuses me.

From what I have read its like you can alter any extended note other than the triad. The freedom to alter, which means possibilities. Is that true? I've also heard of the altered scale/mode in the melodic minor scale, from what I read in connection to alt chords, this makes no sense to an alt chord if its in major e.g. G7alt. Maybe I am tripping.

Can anyone explain? Thanks.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Here's a start:

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[bako]

5th becomes b5
11th becomes #11
b5 and #11 is the same note. Context decides the correct name.

5th becomes #5
13 becomes b13
#5 and b13 is the same note. Context decides the correct name.

9 becomes b9
9 becomes #9

In dominant chords it is possible to use from 0-4 altered notes.

The altered scale from the melodic minor contains the following intervals.

1 b9 #9 3 b5 b13 b7 8

It could also be spelled

1 b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 b7 8

The first spelling better indicates the harmonic content.
It contains 1 3 b7 and all 4 altered notes b5/#11 #5/b13 b9 #9

Some of the altered dominant notes are also components of other modes but melodic minor #7 is the one stop shopping center.

[gingerjazz]

Just to add to the other answers.Using your G7alt as an example,more often than not this chord is used as a five chord because of the tension created between the third and seventh of the chord(tritone).Now as you may or may not know the chord formula for a G7 chord is R,3,5,b7.With an alt chord we are trying to upgrade the humble dominant 7 chord by creating even more tension within the chord to create an even greater pull to one chord.However there are certain notes that we cannot mess with.Starting with the root obviously we cant change this note as it would change the name of the chord,we also need the third and seventh to give the chord its dominant quality.Now as long as we leave these three essential chord tones alone we can alter all the other tones of the dominant scale without losing the identity of the dominant chord.So as already mentioned we can alter the ninth and the fifth either flat or sharp so that gives us three essential chord tones and four altered tones which by my maths gives us seven notes(enough to make a scale).If you now compare these notes to the Ab melodic minor scale you will find it contains the same notes you can also think of it as the seventh mode of melodic minor(Super locrian).As every note in this scale is essentially a chord tone there are not really any avoid notes .Hope this in some way helps please ask if there is anything else you need to know about.Even though i say there are no avoid notes i still like to base my improv lines around arpeggios built from the melodic minor scale please ask if you want to know more about this technique.

[whatswisdom]

Just to add to the other answers.Using your G7alt as an example,more often than not this chord is used as a five chord because of the tension created between the third and seventh of the chord(tritone).Now as you may or may not know the chord formula for a G7 chord is R,3,5,b7.With an alt chord we are trying to upgrade the humble dominant 7 chord by creating even more tension within the chord to create an even greater pull to one chord.However there are certain notes that we cannot mess with.Starting with the root obviously we cant change this note as it would change the name of the chord,we also need the third and seventh to give the chord its dominant quality.Now as long as we leave these three essential chord tones alone we can alter all the other tones of the dominant scale without losing the identity of the dominant chord.So as already mentioned we can alter the ninth and the fifth either flat or sharp so that gives us three essential chord tones and four altered tones which by my maths gives us seven notes(enough to make a scale).If you now compare these notes to the Ab melodic minor scale you will find it contains the same notes you can also think of it as the seventh mode of melodic minor(Super locrian).As every note in this scale is essentially a chord tone there are not really any avoid notes .Hope this in some way helps please ask if there is anything else you need to know about.Even though i say there are no avoid notes i still like to base my improv lines around arpeggios built from the melodic minor scale please ask if you want to know more about this technique.

Thumbs up. Thank you, gingerjazz. Very clear explanation which certainly helps my understanding. I've sometimes had trouble with this chord when working through The Real Book.

[Meggy]

Just to add to the other answers.Using your G7alt as an example,more often than not this chord is used as a five chord because of the tension created between the third and seventh of the chord(tritone).Now as you may or may not know the chord formula for a G7 chord is R,3,5,b7.With an alt chord we are trying to upgrade the humble dominant 7 chord by creating even more tension within the chord to create an even greater pull to one chord.However there are certain notes that we cannot mess with.Starting with the root obviously we cant change this note as it would change the name of the chord,we also need the third and seventh to give the chord its dominant quality.Now as long as we leave these three essential chord tones alone we can alter all the other tones of the dominant scale without losing the identity of the dominant chord.So as already mentioned we can alter the ninth and the fifth either flat or sharp so that gives us three essential chord tones and four altered tones which by my maths gives us seven notes(enough to make a scale).If you now compare these notes to the Ab melodic minor scale you will find it contains the same notes you can also think of it as the seventh mode of melodic minor(Super locrian).As every note in this scale is essentially a chord tone there are not really any avoid notes .Hope this in some way helps please ask if there is anything else you need to know about.Even though i say there are no avoid notes i still like to base my improv lines around arpeggios built from the melodic minor scale please ask if you want to know more about this technique.

A brilliant, concise explanation. I already use the MM in the way you describe, but still, this helps to clarify things in a useful way for me. Cheers gingerjazz!

[gingerjazz]

After reading through the last part of my post about using arpeggios from the melodic minor scale,i thought id like to clarify that if i was playing over G7 ALT i would possibly use an arp based line from the harmonised Ab melodic minor scale eg.CbMaj7#5 ,i would use these as my target notes and connect them with the other notes of the scale.

[mr. beaumont]

I've also heard of the altered scale/mode in the melodic minor scale, from what I read in connection to alt chords, this makes no sense to an alt chord if its in major e.g. G7alt. Maybe I am tripping.

Can anyone explain? Thanks.

The "altered scale" is the seventh mode of the MM. It's just as easy to think MM up a half step from the altered dominant, so Ab MM over a G7alt. Gives you all of the possible alterations.

[wizard3739]

The "altered scale" is the seventh mode of the MM. It's just as easy to think MM up a half step from the altered dominant, so Ab MM over a G7alt. Gives you all of the possible alterations.

+_1 wiz

[gingerjazz]

As usual Mr B has managed to sum up in a line and a bit what i was trying to say in 11 lines if babble maybe it would be better if i just shut up and play,and leave the explanations to the educators on here.

[mr. beaumont]

Nah, what you said was actually very valid--when we think about arpeggios we cut to the chase, so to speak, and superimposing arpeggios over chords of a different root can automatically put us on a interesting note to start the line from.

I'm just "mister simple."

[zap98]

if i were mrb i would of said 'yeah thats right, i summed it up' hehehe. only joking then again i don't know what im talking about. thanks gjazz and mrb that was great and to everyone else too. I am going back to MM in C, re-start where i left off and slog the fingers. cheers.

[JonnyPac]

The 7th mode of MM is the ALT, yes. It's funny how the intervals work though.

If you think scale degrees... 1234567

You get: R b2 b3 b4??? b5 b6 b7 this is a mess...

Now in functional order: R 3(the "b4") b5 b7 b9 #9 b13... the #11 is the b5 still part of the lower structure; with this in mind he b13 is not the #5.

Wacky, but cool. Dig?

[paynow]

This is all valid information but I'll add a quick cheat for determining an altered scale:

Take any major scale:

C D E F G A B C

And raise the root a half step, so you get:

C# D E F G A B C#

Just another way to look at it.

[zap98]

This is all valid information but I'll add a quick cheat for determining an altered scale:

Take any major scale:

C D E F G A B C

And raise the root a half step, so you get:

C# D E F G A B C#

Just another way to look at it.

This is a useful tool. Quick way to get around

johnnypac, the 2-oct function array (interval sequence) is great tool too. I see in your example the 5th degree alterations can be made in both octaves. A diatonic cheat, but the tones in pitch value are quite wide apart. The presentation is clearer.

Nice one.

[JonR]

The way I finally understood the altered scale - in a way in which I could actually use it - was when I spotted that the alterations give you all these cool half-step moves to the next chord.

IOW, it's not only about increasing the tension on the V7 - it IS that, but mainly it's where those tensions lead you (how they resolve) that matters.

Here's a chart with all the possible half-step moves from G altered (Ab melodic minor) to Cm (with C melodic minor extensions)

 
G7 altered > Cm (maj7 or 6/9)
 
Ab         >  G or A
A#         >  A or B
B          >  C
Db         >  C or D
D#         >  D

And if the target chord is C major, you get one more:

 
G7 altered > C (maj13)
 
Ab         >  G or A
A#         >  A or B
B          >  C
Db         >  C or D
D#         >  D
F          >  E

The trick is - whatever wild phrase you play on the G7alt chord - to emerge via a half-step (from the last note on the G7) on to one of those chord tones or extensions (as the first note on the Cm or C chord). (Of course there are whole step moves too, and at least one common tone, but the half-steps are better.)

There are also some useful licks you can use on a G7alt, such as arps of Abm and/or Bbm; or any Bb minor pent phrase will fit. (But not Ab minor pent.)

[gingerjazz]

Good point jonr about resolving to a chord tone,i think between us all weve done a pretty good job of explaining how to use the alt scale,group hug.

[JonnyPac]

*hugs*