Pentatonic Scales over m7b5 Chords

[anth202]

can you play a major pentatonic a semitone above a m7-5 chord? from what ive researched, you can play it a b5 or b6 above it but nothing is mentioned about what ive stated. so if we have Bm7-5, i can play a C major pentatonic?

[mr. beaumont]

Sure you can, wouldn't be my first choice, though.

write the notes out and see what you get: the b9 (C) is usually a place to pass through, not hang, for me, and mind you, you won't hit the b5 (but you will get the 7th and 3rd of the chord)

I say write the notes of all of those out and see what you get.

[JohnW400]

A good choice for the mi7b5 chord is a different pentatonic. It's called the Kumoi scale and it is kind of like a minor pentatonic but more like a tonic minor (c -cmi) as opposed to the relative minor type (C -Ami)

It's a pentatonic major with a flat third C D Eb G A instead of C D E G A. This gives you a mi6/9 chord as well as

D7b9sus4
Ebma13 b5
Ami11b5

Against a Bmi7b5 I would play D Kumoi ( D E F A B)

[oneworld]

Against a Bmi7b5 I would play D Kumoi ( D E F A B)

that's a great sound !

many players leave out the d and play E F A B and continue up an octave repeating E F A B... or going down B A F E etc. or variations like B E F A...

or take E F A B and go through the major scale using 2 notes per string
so you get F G B C... etc...

of course conventional wisdom gives you maj pentatonic scales on b5 and b6
as immediate options.

[oneworld]

...so if we have Bm7-5, i can play a C major pentatonic?

if you don't pound on the note C on the 'heavy' beats you're cool.

the other notes D E G A easily lead you into quartal harmony/melody...

joe henderson's inner urge is a good example.

[Aristotle]

It's a pentatonic major with a flat third C D Eb G A instead of C D E G A. This gives you a mi6/9 chord as well as
D7b9sus4
Ebma13 b5
Ami11b5

Ain't I a dummy? I'd have called those notes C blues scale.

[JohnW400]

Ain't I a dummy? I'd have called those notes C blues scale.

You might if you call it A blues scale.

Or we could add a note like G# and call it a "pentatonic bebop" scale because we added an extra chromatic note between a whole step

[JonR]

Ain't I a dummy? I'd have called those notes C blues scale.

You would?
Most would agree with JohnW400 and call it A blues scale.

I've also seen it called the "b3 pent", being same as major pent but with a b3: 1-2-b3-56
It's good from the 5th of a dom7 - suggesting it will also work from the 3rd of a m7b5.
Eg, using C D Eb G A on F7 gives you 5 13 7 9 and 3 - what more do you need?
On Am7b5 it gives you the chord arp, plus the 11th, the best additional note.

I realise John has more or less said all this... (although I'd pick a bone with him about "Ebmaj7b5" - Ebmaj7#11, surely?)

[czardas]

Interesting thread. Here's some other arrangements of the kumoi scale. Perhaps it's of interest.

Kumoi C D Eb G A
Insen D Eb G A C
Han-kumoi G A C D Eb

[JohnW400]

You would?


I realise John has more or less said all this... (although I'd pick a bone with him about "Ebmaj7b5" - Ebmaj7#11, surely?)

Tough call here.

If it had Bb in it then no doubt about it, #11. However it's ambiguous. You could, maybe should, call it 13#11 only by the fact that it contains the 6th.

However. Play the scale. Eb G A C D. Now tell me what do your ears hear? Do they hear it as 13#11 (Eb G Bb D F A C) or do they hear it as a major7th b5 arpeggio with an extra note?

Harmonize and play through the scale. Start with x C Eb A D G and move it though the scale. Then tell what you hear.

[Aristotle]

You would?
Most would agree with JohnW400 and call it A blues scale.

I would call it that too - if the A was listed as the first note.

[anth202]

great stuff here. thanks

[JonR]

I would call it that too - if the A was listed as the first note.

OK, but C D Eb G and A are still 5 out of the 6 notes of C blues scale. The first note is not necessarily the root. It's a mode of A blues scale - less the E - if you like.
Only 3 of the notes come from what most people call "C blues scale" (C Eb F Gb G Bb).

Now, if you'd said C "major blues" - that's closer (C D Eb E G A) - which is just a mode of A blues, of course.

[Aristotle]

JonR,
This is an inconclusive issue, and I wonder this important to you.

1. OK. It's five notes, but that's true no matter which note you call the tonic.
2. It's just a custom, or so I thought, to spell scales from the tonic or root.
3. If you want to call a scale "major," even though it only has a minor third, go ahead.
4. I don't believe that any blue pitch collection, or blues "scale" is really a subset of the chromatic scale, because of the bent notes, and ofr other reasons. Also the idea of building a six-note box and thinking inside of it is contrary to a thought process that is supposed to be improvisational and impressionistic. I an unrestrained from mixing in C blues, the Eb an A notes, or mixing the E and Bb notes, even though these note pairs take one note from each of your major and minor "scales."
5. It was a joke, simplcity contrasted against D7b9sus4 and Ebma13 b5, two things that pitch collection is not going to make me think of.

[czardas]

My way of thinking about improvising using modes is to play within the pattern (or group of notes), but feel free to wander. It's not necessarily the way others might think. The name you give the scale has no real significance other than if you want to talk about it. Some people might find it easier to remember one way rather than another, and other people might prefer to not think about modes at all. That's my two penneth worth.

[RunningBeagle]

I love the scale under discussion here.

1, 2, b3, 5, 6 - some people just call it the minor pentatonic. I think that's weird considering 99% of people call 1, b3, 4, 5, b7 the minor pentatonic, but that 1% includes Mick Goodrick, so whatever.

Anyway, as people are saying, it's great for -7b5 in this form:

1, b3, 4, b5, b7

Jerry Bergonzi spells it this way primarily, and calls it the -7b5 pentatonic.

I like to use it as a rootless dominant structure. Over C7#11 you would play the -7b5 pentatonic from the 3rd:

E, G, A, Bb, D = 3, 5, 13, b7, 9

Over altered dominants I think -7b5 from the 7th. C7alt would be:

Bb, Db, Eb, E, Ab = b7, b9, #9, 3, b13

Why do I love them? 2 reasons:

1 - they sound inside b/c they have good tensions and the 3rd/7th, but outside because they don't have roots. They straddle the line between specific and abstract.

2 - you can play blues licks, because as someone mentioned, this scale is like a blues scale with no fifth. It sounds hip to play hackneyed blues licks in uncommon ways. Again, familiarity and strangeness, all in one.

[JohnW400]

It's one of my favorites but mostly for that ma7b5 sound. Which of course encompasses all kinds of sounds like mi11b5, 13 with a 9, mi 6/9.


It kind of matches up to that chord in the Joe Pass method book where he shows one voicing and 4 different names

xx2335

Harmonizing the scale with panditonics yield some great voicings



Pentatonics are very useful. If you think about it, take any 7th chord apreggio and add some sort of 2,4, or 6 and you get a different pentatonic.

Of course most people think of these as arpeggios or even pitch collections.

Another useful variation of the standard pentatonic major that I happened on is to lower the 6th (C D E G Ab). The last mode of this one gives you an Abma7#/b5. I would link it back to the F jazz minor scale. lot's of good stuff in this one too. This scale probably has a name, but I have no idea what it is.

[RunningBeagle]

Another useful variation of the standard pentatonic major that I happened on is to lower the 6th (C D E G Ab). The last mode of this one gives you an Abma7#/b5. I would link it back to the F jazz minor scale. lot's of good stuff in this one too. This scale probably has a name, but I have no idea what it is.

Heard it called maj b6 pentatonic, via the Bergonzi thing once again.

[timscarey]

A good choice for the mi7b5 chord is a different pentatonic. It's called the Kumoi scale and it is kind of like a minor pentatonic but more like a tonic minor (c -cmi) as opposed to the relative minor type (C -Ami)

It's a pentatonic major with a flat third C D Eb G A instead of C D E G A. This gives you a mi6/9 chord as well as

D7b9sus4
Ebma13 b5
Ami11b5

Against a Bmi7b5 I would play D Kumoi ( D E F A B)

John, I love ya buddy, but I just got into a discussion with someone about this scale and I think it's a bit different that that.

Do you have a source that I could check out. I honestly just googled it and found that the Japanese modes all have 2 half-steps in them.

Then again, I think the site I got the info from was a shred guitar blog.

either way, this is not an attack, I honestly just really want to know the truth of the matter, or at least a good source of info on it.

[timscarey]

Interesting thread. Here's some other arrangements of the kumoi scale. Perhaps it's of interest.

Kumoi C D Eb G A
Insen D Eb G A C
Han-kumoi G A C D Eb

Where did you read this?

[JohnW400]

Dude,

I went to school before the internet was invented so I actually know about things like librarys, books, encyclopedias and sitting in the local pub having discusions face to face about all kinds of things over a mug.

This was before Wiki.

Remember my quote. "Wiki is as reliable for information as the Real Book is for the changes"

The BOOK is called Twentieth Century Harmony. The author is Vincent Persichetti. It's published by Norton.

On page 50 you will find his part on Pentatonic and Hexatonic scales. He lists four common types by name

diatonic, pelog, hirhoshi and kumoi.

I'll bet it's in the walter Piston book too but I don't have that one.


I will say that I have seen the kumoi scale called by another Japanese name

Your freind owes you an apology

[timscarey]

Thanks.

You didn't have to be so mean about it, but thank you. I don't have that book. And I love how you assume I don't read books. I was simply asking you for a resource. Jeez.

[czardas]

Where did you read this?

Which scale are you refering to? I listed three.

Many of the scales listed on different webpages seem to have been copied from the following source:

http://www.pdmusic.org/text/027.txt

Be careful, the above document contains several mistakes, and some of the information may be unreliable.

Insen => http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insen_scale

[JohnW400]

Thanks.

You didn't have to be so mean about it, but thank you. I don't have that book. And I love how you assume I don't read books. I was simply asking you for a resource. Jeez.

Just being sarcastic and feeling my age. Old. Don't take it personal. It was meant to be funny. Look at tech today. Printed books? who needs 'em.

I think it has become so easy to publish or state somthing on the web , which then becomes read as fact , that I don't put my faith in the truth of what I read there. Not that books, etc. are 100% correct but ......

I guess I should have put a smiley face. Sorry

Besides, I hope my answers in this forum are not seen to be mean. If it get's to that point, then why post?

[604bourne123]

cause the more than familiar major is next.