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No, I don't. I competed in the Geography Bee as a kid.
Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar
I have no "objections" to chords. And Neapolitan in geography is simply the adjective form of Naples.That was one of your big objections with the Neapolitan chord.
I just read a thread where someone recommended taking you off Ignore because really wanted to "help." I don't know how he figured that out, if he had you on Ignore. Nonetheless, I took you off Ignore. And this is what I find.
Well, back on Ignore you go.
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02-22-2011 01:35 PM
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Well, then, I'm lost again ! Originally Posted by Aristotle
I thought "plagal" had to do with fish but maybe I'm thinking of "pelagic".
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Really? Can you tell us why the sky is blue, now? Originally Posted by Aristotle
My point is simply that you seem to keep attacking the geographical aspects of the names. You keep using phrases like "scale named for an ancient Eastern Mediterranean city-state or civilization" as if the geographical/historical name somehow discredits the overall information. If not, then I am puzzled as to why you keep bringing it up. It seems like you're mocking the geographical/historical aspect of the label. It seems to be the crux of your argument.
Peace,
Kevin
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The signal to noise ratio here is getting pretty poor.
Or to quote Jimmy Bruno,
"didn't take long for this to turn into useless shit. Use notes NOT words".
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Who cares about "plagal"? It's just another one of a million things you have to learn to pass a test in school and never need again for the rest of your life. Especially now that computers are playing Jeopardy. Originally Posted by Ron Stern
I liked your comparative analysis of the chord content.
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sorry i ever brought it up!!!!
i think aristotle was just trying to be light about it. i don't sense any argument or mockery, just some written musings about how ridiculous this stuff can get... and it sure can!
i think we should all just go practice now...
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Exactly. But it doesn't get ridiculous [read: unecessarily complicated] all by itself. Originally Posted by lotuscent
What gets lost in broasides about geophobia and the return salvo is the core idea. Do you remember the core idea? It was: In Fm-G-C or Dm7b5-G-C, "just change the one note of the major scale and keep going."
Do you think Santo and Johnny (Sleepwalk) came up with their melody - still played 50 years later - over the Fm by:
1) thinking: "It also is the 6th mode of melodic minor. It is enharmonic of a min6th chord. ie Fm6/B and Bm7b are the same. They are also used as ii's in minor and as minor plagal cadence subs. ie Fm G7 C = Dm7b5 G7 C."? Or.
2) did they just flat the A and keep going?
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First of all, they weren't jazz guys (Again, it disturbs me how often you guys use pop tunes for "proof.") And their little diad lick only covers 5 notes of the scale. I suspect that if they'd an 11th, it would have been a Bb, not a B. Second, that is just one approach. We get it, you like the simplest choice. We like looking for the interesting choices. Originally Posted by Aristotle
I shouldn't need to list all the examples of people playing over minor subdominants by doing more than just lowering the 6th scale degree. If that's what you want to do, fine. But I don't seem the need to brow-beat the rest of the world into conformity with "the world according to Aristotle." Some of us want to consider some more options. So did many (if not most, if not all) of the jazz greats.
We're not telling you what to do. Please don't mock our curiosity.
Please,
KevinLast edited by ksjazzguitar; 02-23-2011 at 02:34 PM. Reason: typo
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Maybe you do and maybe you don’t. Maybe you play devil’s advocate as an excuse to browbeat the world into conformity. Otherwise, it would not be necessary for you to ass-ume a scale or mode has a B or Bb, when the musical example referred to has neither. For some, it may be more instructive that the note isn't there. Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar
If you focus on music instead of looking for half-baked excuses to attack, you might have noticed it was the point at which Dr. Boob said the Fm was the equivalent of Bm7b5. So, if you want to have the hypothetical debate as to whether Sleepwalk should have a B vs Bb debate, maybe he’s the one to have it with.
No, you don’t get it – again. And you are alone, not any “we.” The last poster not named KS got it just fine.We get it, you like the simplest choice. We like looking for the interesting choices.
If your purpose were musical analysis rather than browbeating the world into conformity, you wouldn’t have to hypothesize about what I supposedly “like.” Or speculate with nonsense about geo-phobia, or any of this non-musical disnformation that predominates your error-riddled pontifications.
If you got it, you’d see ”my” choice and Dr. Boob’s “interesting” choice (the sixth mode of an altered sixth mode of a major scale) – are essentially the same choice, the same notes, you neighing jackass. If you want to re-record Sleepwalk and stuff in your “interesting” Bb’s, go ahead. I am just sure the buying public will make you richer than Gates. Not.
What do you care if others should see the wisdom of what you call “my” choices (and they are not mine, you neighing jackass, I learned them)? Anyone who wants to go the formula-obsessed chord-scale-theory road of mindless numerology, and who wants to circumnavigate the theory globe every two measure, only to get wind up one small step from where they started. Go right ahead. There’s Darth KS to lead you down that path.
On the other hand, someone might want to pry that crud of his wings, and fly by sonar. I don't see why that would bother a normal person, and the only one it seems to bother is you. You keep having to go to the extremes of taking specific statements, which no reasonable person would construe as an attempt to proclaim universal law, and then think you are "proving" something by showing it isn't a universal law.
You're the only one trying to proclaim universal law, and you keep making the error of using Freudian projection, and think others are like you. Don't worry. No one is trying to knock you off you imaginary pedestal. You are the one and only king neighing jackass, the first (and only).Last edited by Aristotle; 02-23-2011 at 02:20 PM.
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[pseudo psychological ramblings ignored] Originally Posted by Aristotle
But you are the one arguing for conformity. You are saying things like "just change the one note of the major scale and keep going" and "You know people can play the piano competently for 50 years, be very familiar with going from F to Fm from 100 different tunes, and know intuitively that the A gets flatted, but the other 6 notes of the scale are still the white keys." I am saying that more options are worth considering. And those options are especially common in the jazz idiom.
I don't know where you get this idea that it is the default to use the C major with an Ab over that Fm chord. First of all Santo and Johny weren't improvisors, so we can't know what they would have played if they'd used more than 5 notes of the scale. Second of all there are countless examples of jazz players using a Mel Min or a Dorian or even a natural minor over that chord. To imply that your "the A gets flatted, but the other 6 notes of the scale are still the white keys" is the "correct" choice is just silly, IMHO. Actually, I think that that is one of the least popular choices.
To most of our ears, that Ab to B sounds awkward. If you like it, go for it. But your unfounded assertion that tries to limit our options is just silly. That's why they call it "modal mixture" - you're mixing the modes. Beyond that, jazz has a long history of considering more than one scale option - that's just part of the jazz language.
Peace,
KevinLast edited by ksjazzguitar; 02-23-2011 at 03:13 PM.
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Don't sweat it, lotuscent. Wasn't your fault. Originally Posted by lotuscent
Just gotta let it roll!
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Yeah, don't blame yourself because the idiots start arguing. Originally Posted by Stackabones
Don't sweat it, lotuscent. Wasn't your fault. Just gotta let it roll!
As an example, let's listen to how a jazz musician approaches the minor subdominant:
We're in Bb and the Ebm alternates with the tonic for the first 4 bars of the A and B sections, I / / | iv / / | I / / | iv / /. Evans, playing that Ebm in the last bar of his intro (0:18) plays a Bbm pentatonic lick over the top. That gives him a b7 and an 11 over that chord, as opposed to your "correct" 7 and #11. When his solo begins, (1:44) you can hear him playing those notes again. Listening to it, he is clearly thinking of those iv as Dorian, which I think is the second most common choice next to mel min.
Can you provide an example of a respected jazz player doing what you're suggesting? (Even if you can all it means is that it is just another option - I never said otherwise.) Too bad Evans didn't know about your trick, his career might have gone somewhere.
Peace,
KevinLast edited by ksjazzguitar; 02-23-2011 at 03:35 PM.
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Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar
Well, that's not really what I meant. Some good folks on this forum, most of whom don't mind getting into heated discussions and letting threads roll out a bit. No real reason for name calling, don't you think?
*
btw, that Evans/Bennett ... wow! Never heard that one. I noticed in the youtube comments that they did an album together in 1976. Just that track lands it on my wish list.
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Actually, You'd Be So Nice To Come Home To/Black Orpheus go like this:
Am7 / Bm7b5 (x877107) / E7 / Am7
You can sub for the two in-between chords with Fm7b5 (x8989x) and Fdim7 (x8979x) and thus get hip to the diff because . . .
In the orig, the Bbm7b5 is a slider-down chord that slides down into the V chord.
With the subs, the Fdim7 is just a one-note twangeration of the V for added tension. Then you insert the Fm7b5 in front of that so you get "the slide" voice-leading descending thing. See, the deal is, it relates informally to the twanged V chord, rather than the i ("One Minor 7", in this case, Am. Whatever, hang loose, bro. Add it all together and you have a double down-sliding twangeration of the V chord.
. . . from my soon-to-be-released book Principles of Music Theory
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I thin you need to calm it down a little bit... noone ever became a capable and respected jazz musician by arguing like that. Originally Posted by Aristotle
Either you're able to listen to other opinions and have a civilized discussion, or, if you're not ready to change your opinion in case you're wrong, just state your opinion and leave the discussion.
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Well... anyways, my take on the topic is, that you can play any note over any chord. There's always a way to justify it in the eyes of the theoretics. Whatever feels right, is correct. Even if it does not feel right, it's not incorrect by default. Just because you don't hear it, doesn not mean a certain note does not fit in. It means you're not used to hearing this specific note in this specific context.
Just play whatever you want to play. In Jazz, there is no wrong note.
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Sorry, I was including myself under the umbrella of "idiots." I was aiming lighten the mood with a little self-deprecation. But I could see how it could be misleading. Originally Posted by Stackabones
Peace,
Kevin
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I don't know where you get this from, because I sure never posted anything about default. I don't even like the idea of "scales" as defining content, or the idea of playing "over" chords, when it comes ot explaining melody, composition in general, or improvisation in particular. Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar
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Since you attached this to my comments, I take it you are telling me to calm down. How would you know my state of calmness? Oh that's right, you wouldn't. Originally Posted by NayNay
That's the result of empirical research? What if someone is already capable, can they argue like that?noone ever became a capable and respected jazz musician by arguing like that.
Well said! And along those lines.if you're not ready to change your opinion in case you're wrong, just state your opinion and leave the discussion.
The idea that a m7b5 is different from a dim chord by moving any one voice of the dim chord up a half-step is not an opinion, it's a fact.
That any "scale" can be identified for use, without going through the machinations of the sixth mode of the altered sixth mode of a major scale or without memorizing the cities of antiquity is not an opinion, it's a fact.
That KS attributes ideas to me that are not mine; is not an opinion it's a fact.
That KS is a j.a., that's an opinion. If the weight of evidence should change at some point, then the opinion will change.
If you can identify any "opinion" I posted that is wrong, feel free to straighten me out.Last edited by Aristotle; 02-23-2011 at 09:05 PM.
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Originally Posted by Aristotle
A half-step.
Raise any of the four notes of he dimished chord a half step, and you have a m7b5.
This is my first post (although the forum has been my homepage for many months now) and this beautifully simple bit of information is what inspired it.
It's the kind of thing that makes you think "of course!" and gives you one of those remarkable moments in jazz where it feels like someone has come into your house and told you that your favourite painting is actually upside-down.
I now have a whole bunch of new m7b5 grips at my disposal.
Thanks!Last edited by Sharks; 02-24-2011 at 06:28 PM. Reason: typo
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And, thank you. Originally Posted by Sharks
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Who needs to "justify" a note? For crying out loud it's freakin' MUSIC!!
If it sounds good, who cares if you're playing a Pythagorean Pregnant 15th over a Osso Bucco inversion?
Sleepwalk sounds like it does because they put in an F minor chord. And it sounds just fine.
All this bandwidth that at first appears to be wasted over one simple note is in fact being wasted over ego and pedantry that's augmented to the 10th power.
Like Frank said, "Shut up 'n' play yer guitar".
And calling people idiots, the recurring condescending "sighs" and eye rolling smileys speaks more volumes about the author than any music clips or videos.
And if music theory is pretty much set in stone, why not use pop songs as examples? It's all the same 12 notes.Last edited by Flyin' Brian; 02-23-2011 at 10:21 PM.
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Make sure you use very lean veal or it will sound like shit. Originally Posted by Flyin' Brian
+1 Santo and Johnny have a website; perhaps we can email them and ask. Since I wouldn't want them to hate me, I can't be bothered. Originally Posted by Flyin' Brian
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I'm sorry that I didn't make it clear that when I said "the idiots start arguing" that I was including myself as one of the idiots. I didn't say, "the idiots start arguing with me." There are always at least two sides to an argument and without qualification I thought it was obvious that I was referring to all sides. I'm sorry that I wasn't clear. My attempt at self-deprecation failed. I'll put on my hair shirt and walk the Camino de Santiago de Compostel on my knees while flagellating myself if it will get everyone to calm down. Sheesh!
Peace,
Kevin
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Are you sure you are a beginner? If you change that to Principles of Twangeration, you can put me down for an autographed copy. We need another theory book like we need an international musicians union telling us what scales we have to play, and what we have to call them. Originally Posted by Ron Stern
That twangeration is what I am talking about. Take a dminished chord and twangerate one of the voices up, and you have the m7b5.
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