"Triad Superimposition" and "Triad Pairs"???

**Jeremy Hillary Boob Ph.D** · 01-31-2011, 05:07 PM

Hello from nowhere... I was reading a thread on Mike Moreno here... I saw "Triad Superimposition" and "Triad Pairs" mentioned... Can you guys please explain this to me? Is it "inside", "outside", or both? It is just like outlining a Am triad over Dm7 to get the extensions? I think Wes did things like that a lot... Thank you...

**jseaberry** · 01-31-2011, 06:40 PM

There are lots of triads that fit over basic chords. If you play a D triad over a C chord, you get the 9th and flat 5th and 13th; if you play an E triad over a C chord, you get the 3rd, 7th and #5, which is to me, a cool sound. You can superimpose triads in a minor 3rd movement (among others) over a dom. chord, i,e,: Bb, Db, and E over G7th. See this:
http://brucesaunders.com/triadpairs.pdf

**Dark Star** · 01-31-2011, 06:57 PM

I believe triad superimposition is combining two triads (say for instance a C major triad & an E minor triad) to come up with a chord w/a 7th in it (in this case a Cmaj7).

**Jeremy Hillary Boob Ph.D** · 01-31-2011, 06:58 PM

@ JB

...so it's a way to get "outside" I take it? The E over C is Harmonic Maj or MM Lydian Aug?

Is that Bb Db E are HW Dim outlines... I'll see if I can DL that PDF... Thank you...

**Jeremy Hillary Boob Ph.D** · 01-31-2011, 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by Dark Star

I believe triad superimposition is combining two triads (say for instance a C major triad & an E minor triad) to come up with a chord w/a 7th in it (in this case a Cmaj7).

Basic polychord stuff... diatonic extensions...

Should this really have fancy names? Seems like triadic upper-structures are inevitable...

**docbop** · 01-31-2011, 08:09 PM

This is like polychords two chords stack on top of each other. Some will combining chord tones of two triads to create new hexatonic scales. You change the triads to change/control the sound. My fave sound is a D triad over a C triad. It gives you a 6/9+11 sound. You could combine the notes of the two triads for a hexatonic scale, but ends up just be C Lydian minus a B. You get the idea you experiment with combo's of triads to create new sound.

Create yourself a little C major groove and experiment play D major triads over it or D mi triad. Your basically soloing using the color tones (9, 11, 13) of the C major scale.

For fun create a Ami groove and play some C and D major triads over the Ami. Dam your a Dorian master now.

**Jeremy Hillary Boob Ph.D** · 01-31-2011, 08:18 PM

Thanks, Doc. I like playing Bm over C to get Lydian... Pretty much the same as D... Cool stuff. I just didn't know the term.

**bako** · 01-31-2011, 09:36 PM

Is it "inside", "outside", or both?

I prefer to think about levels of tension rather than "inside, outside" but yes it is both.
They can be used to color simple as well as complex harmonies.

a few triad pair examples:

D and G on Em

C Bdim on E7

Bb+ and A on C7

They can be drawn from:

A. a scale
B. multiple colors of a harmonic function
C. progressional sequences / interval cycle progressions
D. random (but voice led)

Pairs work well but it is also possible to use more than 2 triads

**ksjazzguitar** · 02-01-2011, 12:15 AM

Superimposing triads is just using triads in your line. As said, they can be inside or outside. The nice thing about using them as outside sounds is that the major triad has such a strong sound that it sometimes sounds right, even when it's wrong. There are plenty of places to find these, including the free "Harmonic Structures" chart on my web store. Larry Carlton and John Stowell are two players I associate with this approach, but I'm sure there are others. Stowell has an awesome video that covers this.

Triad pairs are just using non overlapping triads to define the sound of a scale. I once went to a seminar by Walt Weiskopf where he went into a lot of this. I think that his book Intervalic Improvisation covers the same ground. I'm sure there are others.

Peace,
Kevin

**Dark Star** · 02-01-2011, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by Jeremy Hillary Boob Ph.D

Basic polychord stuff... diatonic extensions...

Yes, that is pretty much the idea in the simplest of terms. I don't understand the face, though.

**JohnW400** · 02-01-2011, 03:15 PM

How about this?
[CHORD]

||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|--E|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|--G|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-C-|---|---|---|

[/CHORD]

PLUS
[CHORD]

||---|---|---|---|-A-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|-D-|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-F#|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

[/CHORD]

Equals

[CHORD]

||---|---|---|---|-A-|---|---|---|---|---|---|1
||---|---|---|---|-E-|---|---|---|---|---|---|1
||---|---|---|---|---|---|-D-|---|---|---|---|2
||---|---|---|---|-G-|---|---|---|---|---|---|1
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-F#|---|---|4
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-C-|---|---|---|3

[/CHORD]

Superimposed?

**bako** · 02-01-2011, 07:11 PM

Great stuff John, maybe interspersed rather than superimposed

Building on this idea yields some forms that can be played broken style.

C F#G D E A
8--9-5-7-5-5

E---A--C--F#-G--D
12-12-10-11--8-10

G--D--E--A--C--F#
3--5---2--2--1--2

Using a different string group model 653+421

C---G---A---E---F#---D
8---10--7---9---7-----10

-E---C---D---G---A---F#
12--15--12--12--10--14

G---E---F#---C---D---A
3---7----4----5---3---5

Same string group different voicing

C---G---D---E---A---F#
8--10---12--9--10---14

-E---C---F#---G---D---A
12--15--16---12--15--17

G---E---A---C---F#---D
3---7---7----5---7----10

I'll stop here now because the fingerings only get weirder for other string group combinations.

Using only 2 of 3 triad notes yields forms more playable.

on 4 consecutive strings:

C F# G D

E A C F#

G D E A

or

C G A F#

E C D A

G E F# D

Then apply these to scale harmonizations if you get snowed in and are looking for an activity.

**Jeremy Hillary Boob Ph.D** · 02-01-2011, 09:25 PM

Wild... not exactly what I though with the last two posts... I think it's supposed to be triads played against the comping chords, right? Typically?

**bako** · 02-01-2011, 09:58 PM

Originally Posted by Jeremy Hillary Boob Ph.D

Wild... not exactly what I though with the last two posts... I think it's supposed to be triads played against the comping chords, right? Typically?

Yes, that is the way that you framed your post, apologies for the detour.

Over time I've grown or devolved to view melodies and harmonies both as methods of bring collections of notes in proximity to each other with the main difference being how they occur in a time frame, simultaneous or sequentially.

**Melodic Dreamer** · 06-19-2014, 04:13 PM

Originally Posted by jseaberry

There are lots of triads that fit over basic chords. If you play a D triad over a C chord, you get the 9th and flat 5th and 13th; if you play an E triad over a C chord, you get the 3rd, 7th and #5, which is to me, a cool sound. You can superimpose triads in a minor 3rd movement (among others) over a dom. chord, i,e,: Bb, Db, and E over G7th. See this:
http://brucesaunders.com/triadpairs.pdf

I know this is an old post, but where can one get the audio for this book? What book is it from?

**MarkRhodes** · 06-19-2014, 05:42 PM

Here is a list of Bruce Saunders books published by Mel Bay.

books

I believe the example is from "Symmetric Solutions: The Diminished Workbook." Check before you buy, though. ;o)

**mikostep** · 06-21-2014, 03:53 AM

Search for terms Charlie banacos, triad pairs or double mambos on rmmjg Google groups. It is a whole new world.

**Cunamara** · 06-22-2014, 01:36 PM

Zombie thread alert!

Originally Posted by docbop

This is like polychords two chords stack on top of each other. Some will combining chord tones of two triads to create new hexatonic scales. You change the triads to change/control the sound. My fave sound is a D triad over a C triad. It gives you a 6/9+11 sound. You could combine the notes of the two triads for a hexatonic scale, but ends up just be C Lydian minus a B. You get the idea you experiment with combo's of triads to create new sound.

Yep, but superimposing triads is easier to do on the fly in many cases and offers interesting chromaticisms. For example, superimposing the triad 1/2 step above a dominant chord, then the triad of the dominant, then the triad a half step below, etc. A lot of interesting tensions and releases can be created very simply. Pat Metheny does a lot of this, indeed it is central to his approach according to some interviews.