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Hello from nowhere... I was reading a thread on Mike Moreno here... I saw "Triad Superimposition" and "Triad Pairs" mentioned... Can you guys please explain this to me? Is it "inside", "outside", or both? It is just like outlining a Am triad over Dm7 to get the extensions? I think Wes did things like that a lot... Thank you...
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01-31-2011 05:07 PM
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There are lots of triads that fit over basic chords. If you play a D triad over a C chord, you get the 9th and flat 5th and 13th; if you play an E triad over a C chord, you get the 3rd, 7th and #5, which is to me, a cool sound. You can superimpose triads in a minor 3rd movement (among others) over a dom. chord, i,e,: Bb, Db, and E over G7th. See this:
http://brucesaunders.com/triadpairs.pdf
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I believe triad superimposition is combining two triads (say for instance a C major triad & an E minor triad) to come up with a chord w/a 7th in it (in this case a Cmaj7).
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@ JB
...so it's a way to get "outside" I take it? The E over C is Harmonic Maj or MM Lydian Aug?
Is that Bb Db E are HW Dim outlines... I'll see if I can DL that PDF... Thank you...Last edited by Jeremy Hillary Boob Ph.D; 01-31-2011 at 07:00 PM.
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Originally Posted by Dark Star
Basic polychord stuff... diatonic extensions...
Should this really have fancy names? Seems like triadic upper-structures are inevitable...Last edited by Jeremy Hillary Boob Ph.D; 01-31-2011 at 07:02 PM.
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This is like polychords two chords stack on top of each other. Some will combining chord tones of two triads to create new hexatonic scales. You change the triads to change/control the sound. My fave sound is a D triad over a C triad. It gives you a 6/9+11 sound. You could combine the notes of the two triads for a hexatonic scale, but ends up just be C Lydian minus a B. You get the idea you experiment with combo's of triads to create new sound.
Create yourself a little C major groove and experiment play D major triads over it or D mi triad. Your basically soloing using the color tones (9, 11, 13) of the C major scale.
For fun create a Ami groove and play some C and D major triads over the Ami. Dam your a Dorian master now.
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Thanks, Doc. I like playing Bm over C to get Lydian... Pretty much the same as D... Cool stuff. I just didn't know the term.
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Is it "inside", "outside", or both?
I prefer to think about levels of tension rather than "inside, outside" but yes it is both.
They can be used to color simple as well as complex harmonies.
a few triad pair examples:
D and G on Em
C Bdim on E7
Bb+ and A on C7
They can be drawn from:
A. a scale
B. multiple colors of a harmonic function
C. progressional sequences / interval cycle progressions
D. random (but voice led)
Pairs work well but it is also possible to use more than 2 triads
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Superimposing triads is just using triads in your line. As said, they can be inside or outside. The nice thing about using them as outside sounds is that the major triad has such a strong sound that it sometimes sounds right, even when it's wrong. There are plenty of places to find these, including the free "Harmonic Structures" chart on my web store. Larry Carlton and John Stowell are two players I associate with this approach, but I'm sure there are others. Stowell has an awesome video that covers this.
Triad pairs are just using non overlapping triads to define the sound of a scale. I once went to a seminar by Walt Weiskopf where he went into a lot of this. I think that his book Intervalic Improvisation covers the same ground. I'm sure there are others.
Peace,
Kevin
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Originally Posted by Jeremy Hillary Boob Ph.D
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How about this?
[CHORD]
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|--E|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|--G|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-C-|---|---|---|
[/CHORD]
PLUS
[CHORD]
||---|---|---|---|-A-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|-D-|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-F#|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
[/CHORD]
Equals
[CHORD]
||---|---|---|---|-A-|---|---|---|---|---|---|1
||---|---|---|---|-E-|---|---|---|---|---|---|1
||---|---|---|---|---|---|-D-|---|---|---|---|2
||---|---|---|---|-G-|---|---|---|---|---|---|1
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-F#|---|---|4
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-C-|---|---|---|3
[/CHORD]
Superimposed?
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Great stuff John, maybe interspersed rather than superimposed
Building on this idea yields some forms that can be played broken style.
C F#G D E A
8--9-5-7-5-5
E---A--C--F#-G--D
12-12-10-11--8-10
G--D--E--A--C--F#
3--5---2--2--1--2
Using a different string group model 653+421
C---G---A---E---F#---D
8---10--7---9---7-----10
-E---C---D---G---A---F#
12--15--12--12--10--14
G---E---F#---C---D---A
3---7----4----5---3---5
Same string group different voicing
C---G---D---E---A---F#
8--10---12--9--10---14
-E---C---F#---G---D---A
12--15--16---12--15--17
G---E---A---C---F#---D
3---7---7----5---7----10
I'll stop here now because the fingerings only get weirder for other string group combinations.
Using only 2 of 3 triad notes yields forms more playable.
on 4 consecutive strings:
C F# G D
E A C F#
G D E A
or
C G A F#
E C D A
G E F# D
Then apply these to scale harmonizations if you get snowed in and are looking for an activity.Last edited by bako; 02-01-2011 at 09:59 PM. Reason: grammar fix
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Wild... not exactly what I though with the last two posts... I think it's supposed to be triads played against the comping chords, right? Typically?
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Originally Posted by Jeremy Hillary Boob Ph.D
Over time I've grown or devolved to view melodies and harmonies both as methods of bring collections of notes in proximity to each other with the main difference being how they occur in a time frame, simultaneous or sequentially.
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Originally Posted by jseaberry
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Here is a list of Bruce Saunders books published by Mel Bay.
books
I believe the example is from "Symmetric Solutions: The Diminished Workbook." Check before you buy, though. ;o)
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Search for terms Charlie banacos, triad pairs or double mambos on rmmjg Google groups. It is a whole new world.
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Zombie thread alert!
Originally Posted by docbop
What's happening at the end of this song?
Today, 07:55 PM in Ear Training, Transcribing & Reading