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Originally Posted by Bushman
Close your eyes, open to a random page, plonk your finger down. Open your eyes and read.
The suggestion is likely to be good. The theory is likely to be incomplete at best; often incoherent, and sometimes flat wrong. Often not a theory at all.
I think the whole thing is a clever way to get the world to write the second edition for him.
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04-11-2011 12:59 PM
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It's too bad Levine doesn't post here. It would be nice to hear his take on all of this. I'm sure it would lead to an interesting discussion if nothing else!
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I think Levine keeps his head in the sand. I would if my book caused so much controversy and I was unwilling to revise it for whatever reason. We'd all have fun with him here... KS and JonR with Levine would be EPIC!! Originally Posted by Jazzpunk
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How do I translate Chord/Scale to playing freely but intelligently?
Some advice I got was to just "close your eyes and play." It definitely helped but I ended up playing the same stuff over and over and sounding very amateur, so obviously there needs to be some training and conditioning involved.
So I guess my question is - what is the best way to learn the framework of jazz? Ummm playing over and hearing the chords, learning patterns and getting the mechanics down etc.
I know I'm sounding noobish but I suspect the even the greats were still trying to put the pieces together until the day they died.
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Well, I wouldn't start from chord scale theory. Originally Posted by Bushman
(Irish joke: driver in rural Ireland asks local guy, "how can I get to Dublin?" Local guy: "Well, I wouldn't start from here.")
Playing "freely" presupposes having internalised a fair amount of knowledge. Ie, to play the right notes without thinking about it means knowing the right notes beforehand. A good ear and good imagination relies on substantial experience with the music. Vocabulary!
Playing "intelligently" is perhaps a little easier (open to less experienced musicians) and means understanding the context. That may mean either a functional harmonic sequence (key-based progression) or modal harmony, or some combination of both. Even if you don't known any theoretical jargon, you can play intelligently on a tune you know very well, ie that you have played many times before. And the better you know it, the more "freely" you can play too, because you will know what works, what sounds "right".
CST is really designed for modal harmony, where chords typically exist in isolation from each other. But if you can read chord symbols, you don't really need CST. That's because jazz charts typically use chord symbols that imply - or at least hint at - the correct scales to use.
Eg, if you see "maj7#11", you need to know that means a major triad with a major 7th and raised 11th extensions. That gives you 5 notes out of 7 - and the other two can be guessed at fairly easily.
Eg, "Cmaj7#11" = C E G B F#. Not too hard to guess at D and A as the missing notes, and not Db, D#, Ab or A# - which isn't to say some of the latter options might not be worth trying. Do you need to know that set of notes is called "C lydian mode"? Or simply "G major scale"? Either name will do.
Something like "C7#5#9" presents more of a problem, perhaps.
The symbol gives you C E G# Bb D#. Enharmonic rules already suggest something wrong there - we're not supposed to have flats and sharps together in one scale. As for the other notes (if 5 isn't enough for you to improvise with, and it may well be) - is there an A in between that G# and Bb? Is it F or F# in between E and G#?
An experienced jazz musician (who may have absorbed some CST) will look at that symbol and recognise immediately an altered dominant, that takes the "C altered scale": C Db D# E F# G# Bb. He will probably also know that's enharmonic with the 7th mode of Db melodic minor (C Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bb).
So - while CST is a route to interpreting that kind of chord symbol - using the scale "intelligently" still depends on understanding the context: the chords either side, the current key.
IOW, an altered dominant is a functional chord, not a modal one: its tension is designed to resolve somewhere, namely to a following tonic. So an intelligent player knows to construct a phrase that will do that, that has its target on the following chord.
"Cmaj7#11", OTOH, may or may not be a functional chord. It might be IV in G major, I in C major (with a chromatic extension), or just an isolated C lydian chord. The scale is the same in any case, but an intelligent player is still going to be looking at ways of linking phrases across from the previous chord to this one, and from this chord to the next. Except on the rare occasions where there are NO other chords!
In short, there's no substitute for basic harmonic theory (keys, tonality, modes, chords and chord progressions), and for studying plenty of jazz tunes: listening to recordings, and reading Real Books, or any reliable transcriptions, and playing them. It's about internalising the rules through practice - so that the theory becomes habit.
You don't need a ton of theory knowledge before you start. Some experience playing (and improvising) blues is a good grounding for jazz. But it's debatable how much help CST will give you.
Right. That's because you have (as yet) a limited vocabulary. You can only play what you know. You can only hear in your head what you have listened to before. Originally Posted by Bushman
Pretty much. But don't get bogged down in mechanics: in technique, and in scales and scale patterns. Learn to play TUNES. Study some jazz standards. Old-fashioned jazz may not appeal to you, but all the contemporary greats went through that "school". Originally Posted by Bushman
(I remember it impressed me when I found Pat Metheny was a Louis Armstrong fan. "But he sounds nothing like him!" would be the naive response to that...
)
Improvisation is about creating melody on the spot. The way to get good at that is to study melody! That's why playing standard tunes is so important. You get a feel for how notes string together in good phrases.
You should also listen to soloists (on all instruments) and steal phrases you like. Any time you hear a phrase or lick that jumps out at you, work it out: and check how it fits the chord(s) - so you know how to apply it in future - and whether it refers to the melody of the piece at all. (It doesn't have to, but the melody always makes a good jumping off point for a soloist.)
Don't bother learning to play whole solos - unless there is a solo where you really do enjoy every single phrase equally. Spread your influences as wide as you can.
Don't forget that the notes (scales) are only part of it. Rhythm, space, tone, dynamics, articulation, attitude... these are critical parts of the jazz language. It's a little like a street slang: you can't learn it properly by reading a book; you have to hang with the gang. 
Absolutely right. There's a few jazz quotes to that effect, such as Dizzy Gillespie's "it's taken me a lifetime to learn what not to play." Originally Posted by Bushman
You know the old cliche: it's about the journey, not the destination. (There is no destination, other than death; so you may as well enjoy the trip.)Last edited by JonR; 04-12-2011 at 11:50 AM.
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We all love JonR. Great post.
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Dude, thank you Jonr! That post was FULL of value. I think I need to revise the way I'm internalizing the music. Hope you don't mind if I pop you a question every now and then when I'm stuck.
A single conversation with a wise man is better than ten years of study. ~ Chinese Proverb lol
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For those interested in digital versions, Sher Music has just released this as a PDF download
The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine | Sher Music Co.
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The book is rather jumpy in an an odd jagged sort of order and leaves out a whole lot of useful jazz concepts.
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The Spanish version, "Teoría del Jazz por Mark Levine" - now available as a PDF download!
Teoría del Jazz por Mark Levine | Sher Music Co.
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I'm convinced chord scale theory is much much much easier on the keyboard. Convinced. For example - take E7alt in the key of C. E altered scale.
You only need to change two notes from C major. Obvious to a pianist. Not obvious to a guitarist.
So it's a good idea to learn some piano.
Mark Levine's book isn't something I've looked at for about 15 years. Maybe I will glance at it again at some point. It won't help you play bop or swing or any of that type of thing.
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I posted this question on a thread from earlier today but I think it is closed/abandoned now so I'm gonna ask here: do you think studying The Jazz Theory Book plus listening to the music will help me get in the master's heads so that I can play my own jazz like something that won't go out of style? Must sound naive I know but if I'm all wrong how exactly do you get to That level?
(When I was playing rock and metal there were reports of high level guitarists playing 16 to 20 hours a day, presumably not sleeping or bathing much and yes, I've been there to one degree or another, but nowadays
I'm thinking "smarter not longer"...any ideas?)
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I think you're probably going to notice that you get very similar answers to these questions ... Namely that nothing will help you get to that level. Tons of things are useful but all over the course of many years. Listen to music you like, learn music you like, study with a teacher you like who compliments your skills. Repeat. For years.
The only way to come remotely close to getting into anyone's head is transcribing what they played. That's it. That music is a thought manifested through sound. How do you get into George Orwells head? Sounds like a silly question, no? You read as many of the thousand essays he left behind containing his thoughts and ideas and feelings. No different for music. Go to the source. Plus all the stuff I mentioned up top.
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I am up to about page 500 of this fantastic 900 page book
Thinking in Jazz: The Infinite Art of Improvisation by Paul F. Berliner ? Reviews, Discussion, Bookclubs, Lists
For 500 pages I have read first hand accounts of the masters talking about transposing transposing transposing.
I have the digital edition, it is so great I want the paper version so I can just look at it up in my book case and say "Dam! Thank you".
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I found the book helpful. Not the last word, by any means, but it created an entry into CST that made sense to me.
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Now let's take a poll for those who bought it and never used it. I'm sure there's good stuff in there, I'm just too lazy to open it up.
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I memorized every detail of the book when it came out. I also studied him privately. I think it's okay for beginners but too narrow in it's approach to lead one to satisfied jazz playing.
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I bought it and read most of it. In fact, I think I read all of it, but ended up skimming through the last third or so. Originally Posted by Guitarzen
I thought it was very impressive. Well written and presented. Convincing (for a beginner to jazz theory).
But used it (in the sense of applying any of it to my playing)? Nope.
That's because I wasn't actually a beginner in playing jazz. I already knew how to improvise, in all but the most complicated sequences. Something wasn't quite right about it, but it took me a long time to realise what it was...
[see earlier in thread]
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With all due respect Jon, using all caps THE is not how the book is titled (it's simply "The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine") and Mark has never proclaimed that any of his books as the be or end all of anything. He's not that arrogant or pretentious, and he's a damn good pianist too (just in case anybody was wondering...). Originally Posted by JonR
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