How well does the CAGED Method work for playing Jazz

[Aristotle]

Generally speaking, stretches are avoided with CAGED.

I don't invite stretches, but the alternative is shifting.

So, how do you negotiate simple melodic patterns, like the basic scale-in-thirds in C: CEDF or CEDC DFED - starting in the 3rd fret A string or in the fifth postition starting with the C on the sixth string. Or almost any arpeggio that extends beyond a triad.

It seems to me that going back and forth between the G and B strings, my fingers would be tripping over themselves.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Generally. As opposed to a system which attempts to stay in one exact position or avoid shifts by using stretches. Of course you have to stretch sometimes.

[bass2man]

Yes, the Bruno method is the CAGED system, but I think the way he presents it, with scale notes, is more useful as it starts you thinking along knowing the notes you are playing....IMHO.

What I really like about the sytem is that it is very easy to move between key changes/tonal centers and stay in the same position, immediately giving you the note choices of the new key...

For example, moving keys from F to Bb if you are playing at the 3rd fret just requires a shift from form 2 to form 6 ( the E's change to Eb's..).
Of course, you still need to take the training wheels off and practice good chord tone movement and resolutions or it sounds like noodling, but it is a good roadmap to start...

[Aristotle]

Generally. As opposed to a system which attempts to stay in one exact position or avoid shifts by using stretches. Of course you have to stretch sometimes.

Then, you can't stay in five shapes anyway. And that was my point.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Just so you know, I don't consider myself a die-hard CAGED guy. I never read a CAGED book or studied a system. The first scales I learned were 5 position scales with shifts. A few years later I read something about CAGED in terms of "seeing" chord forms up the neck. That was one chord form per scale position that I already knew. Cool.

When I looked at the Jimmy Bruno stuff, it seemed like that was pretty much what he was doing. Then, a couple of years ago, I worked through the first couple of Leavitt's excellent Modern Guitar Method books. So, I'm acquainted with those fingerings as well.

While reading this thread I noted that people were describing playing what would be Leavitt's 1A fingering over an E major form. I pointed out that a 5-position player would generally play what would be (for Leavitt) a type 2 fingering over that chord, starting on the second finger.

There has been much discussion on this forum regarding 5-position scales with shifts versus other systems with more positions. I have always thought of these five-position scales as being CAGED. I’m probably wrong in looking at it that way.

I say this because the term “CAGED” is not really anything like a clearly defined system. From all that I’ve ever been able to find out about it, CAGED just kind of evolved out of musicians talking about seeing chord forms on the fretboard. (If there’s some history here I don’t know about, please enlighten me.)

The relationship of these chord forms on the neck isn’t something someone invented. They’re in that order CAGEDCAG… and so on. Starting it on C provides an easily-remembered acronym. (I feel sorry for the schmuck who came up with that one, and just told his buddies instead of copyrighting it.)

In contrast, Levitt’s fingerings are a pretty well-defined system which can be traced back to him and his writing. CAGED is probably at its most basic level a good way of describing some basic chord positions on the fretboard. When it comes to relating them to scale fingerings, things apparently can go in many different directions.

justinguitar.com, like Bruno, uses 5 scale patterns with shifts. Justin calls this a CAGED system. I don’t know what Bruno does, but when it comes to Melodic Minor, Harmonic Minor and arpeggios, Justin includes some stretches.

The guy at the following site uses 5 scale patterns with stretches over the 5 CAGED chord forms as part of his CAGED system:

http://www.cagedguitarsystem.net/

So instead of...

Generally speaking, stretches are avoided with CAGED.

It would probably be more correct to say, "Generally speaking the point of playing a 5-pattern scale system with shifts is to avoid stretches."

I think that much of the confusion over the CAGED "system" is that it isn't really systematized. It didn't emerge out of one university or one book as far as I know. Everyone kind of does their own thing with it. The common denominator is the chord forms and their order on the fretboard.

To that end, I think that it's valuable for anyone, regardless of their scale-fingering preference, to be able to visualise chord shapes other than an E or A form up the neck and be able to relate them in some way to corresponding scale patterns.

I don't think that there are any absolutes with this stuff. That's why I used the term "generally". Of course there are times when you have to shift out of position (such as multi-ocatave arps), and there are times when it makes more sense to momentarily stretch to play an altered note.

To the beginner I would say that there are a ton of other ways to finger scales besides these two. Just make sure you're not learning some random fingerings off the internet. I feel that, in the beginning, it's important to learn a system of fingering scales in which the patterns don't have a lot of overlap on the fretboard. That "overlap" practice time could be spent learning another scale you don't know yet!

IMHO, if you're not going to play five patterns with shifts as your first scales (which have the benefits of learning fewer positions and arguably being easier to play), you're best served by studying the Leavitt books rather than learning some random stretch fingerings. His are geared toward the very practical skill of being able to play in any key from any fret-postion. Just my 2c.

[princeplanet]

I posted this in another thread recently but I'll add it again here. I have used CAGED for years, but recently since shedding the drop 2 forms for chords, it's making sense for me right now to split the neck in 4 parts, one for each drop 2 inversion. This falls neatly on the 5 Caged forms that have their roots on the 5th and 6th strings (2 each). Wherever I am on the neck, if I think of the nearest root on either the 5th or 6th string, I can quickly associate this position with it's attendant drop 2 chord (3 string group choices), the arpeggio, the mode, the blues scales, MM, HM, licks etc etc. It makes me think less in scales and more in chord tone related terms.

So far I'm not really missing the 5th position, and think I can get by without thinking about it unless I'm thinking more scalar for things like modal vamps etc.

[Al_F]

So, how does Leavitt approach this in his method book ? 5 positions possibly?

[Aristotle]

Al
I don't know if this counts, but it says Berklee on it, and the guy plays the C-scale in the second position and stretches the 1 finger back to the first fret for the F note.

Maybe the whole system is in there somewhere.

It would probably be more correct to say, "Generally speaking the point of playing a 5-pattern scale system with shifts is to avoid stretches."

And Matt, don't worry about being that careful, I am not going to nit-pick you.

When I decided to study guitar seriously (not my first instrument), I suspected there was a system of organizing scales and chords. There was no internet, so I called around to find a teacher who knew what I was asking for and agreed. His included stretches, like F scale in the first position. He also gave me a sheet of stretching excercises - like playing FGAG or FAGA with 124 and 134 on the low E and then moving up and back down the strings - on the theory that it was necessary to cover six frets with four fingers.

So, I was CAGE "ruined" from day one.

[matt.guitarteacher]

So, how does Leavitt approach this in his method book ? 5 positions possibly?

I'm not exactly sure what your asking here, but Leavitt uses 5 positions with stretches in the first two books. By the end of the 3rd book you're playing 12. It teaches you to "evolve" basic fingerings into 12 patterns, allowing you to play in any key from any fretboard position.

It's pretty heavy duty stuff. (Think college jazz guitar textbook.) Unless you're putting in the hours that you would in full-time study, are already a world-class reader, or aren't going to work on anything else (like learning tunes), this is a few years worth of material IMO.

As I said in another thread, unless you already read really well in the first 5 positions or so, I would resist the temptation to get all 3 books. If you just have to, the 3-volumes-in-one edition is nice and gives you the scope of the material at a glance. I made it to about half way through the second book before my eyes glazed over, and I just had to play more tunes and give it a rest, but it's still there on the shelf mocking me. I'll get back to it pretty soon I'm sure.

I'm pretty sure there's a ton of discussion about this book on these forums if you do a search in addition to Amazon reviews and such.

[matt.guitarteacher]

And Matt, don't worry about being that careful, I am not going to nit-pick you.

Thanks, dude.

[Al_F]

I'm not exactly sure what your asking here, but Leavitt uses 5 positions with stretches in the first two books. By the end of the 3rd book you're playing 12. It teaches you to "evolve" basic fingerings into 12 patterns, allowing you to play in any key from any fretboard position.

I was wondering if Leavitt used caged or not. I hear you on the intensity of this book. I posted another question in the beginers forum about Leavitt or Mickey Baker's method. I'm leaning towards the Mickey Baker book as soon as finish some other stuff.

[matt.guitarteacher]

I was wondering if Leavitt used caged or not. I hear you on the intensity of this book. I posted another question in the beginers forum about Leavitt or Mickey Baker's method. I'm leaning towards the Mickey Baker book as soon as finish some other stuff.

Sounds good. That's what I'd do.