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I keep running into guitar players who tune their instruments 1/2 step down [E becomes Eb, etc.]
What is the advantage?
Thank you.
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01-01-2011 04:59 PM
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Stevie Ray Vaughan did it so he could use .013s and still bend 'em up a minor third (-those awesome Albert King licks). The heavy strings provide more sound but they are hell to bend, so tuning them down a half-step gives players the tone they want and the slack needed for heavy-duty bending.
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What kind of guitarists are you running into?
As was pointed out, SRV used .013 strings tuned down 1/2 step. Big Strings equals Big Tone.
Some guitarists who sing retune to acommodate their vocal range.
Contemporary hard rock and metal players often tune down as much as a whole step to acheive a bass heavy, ominous sonic wash, often with the sixth string tuned an additional whole step lower to facilitate one finger power chords.
Few jazz guitarists deviate from concert standard, although in later years George Van Eps tuned down a whole step for ease of fingering.
Regards,
monk
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I've only run into this in blues and rock, not in jazz. I think there is a distinct different in tone when you start tuning down (or up, but watch out!). The strings are looser, the slightly lower pitches are a little darker.
Certainly easier to bend and do vibrato.
I don't know about the issue of accommodating heavier gauges. It's not necessarily the gauge of the string that makes the tone, it's the tension. In other words, it's the gauge and the pitch together. A 13 gauge string tuned to ('high') E is a pretty thick sound on an electric guitar. That same string tuned to B would be the conventional tension for an electric guitar, as the B string in a set of '10s' is about 13.
So as you tune a string lower there is less tension, creating more of the 'thin string' tone, just at a lower pitch. Another way to put it is that I bet if you took a guitar with a set of 12s on it and tuned it down a whole step or more, the tone of the fretted pitches would be similar to a standard tuned guitar with 10 gauge - the tension could be the same.
I'd have to do some math - I wonder what's easier to bend - a guitar strung with 12s in standard tuning or a guitar strung with 13s tuned down a half step.
Just thinking out loud...
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I've noticed that one string thickness up tuned down 1/2 step seems to have approximately the same feel. I think the main reason, like monk said, is for vocal range. Back when I was only a guitar player, I hated having to re-tune to play along with a song tuned down 1/2 step. Over the past few years, I've played in cover bands where I had to sing and have decided that tuning down 1/2 step is the best idea anyone's ever had about anything, ever. It really does make things a lot easier to sing, but it's not a very noticeable interval to the ear; i.e., you don't sound like Pantera or something.
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Yeah, tuning down a half-step to ease singing is something I used to do. It got to where I thought a half-step down *was* standard tuning.
Now I play heavier strings tuned to standard tuning and if I can't bend like I used to, so be it. Jazz is worth it.
As for singing, I either switch to different keys, don't sing that song, or don't sing it well. (I usually sing only to amuse myself, so there are no paying customers to complain.)
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Surely, tension matters. What I heard rock players say was that heavier strings got more 'sound' to the pickups and thence to the amp.
Originally Posted by JakeAcci
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The mass of the string moving through the magnetic field of the pickup most assuredly affects tone. That's why a .009 and a .013 tuned to E have such different tone. Originally Posted by JakeAcci
Since tone is a product of the audible overtones produced by the string, I believe that the mass of the string is more of a contributor than tension.
D'Addario states that there is only a difference in tension of 7.14 pounds between a .009 and a .012 tuned to E.
A .013 tuned to B will have a thicker tone than a .009 tuned to E even though the difference in tension is .75 pounds between the two strings. Therefore, I believe that string mass is the larger contributing factor.
Tuning a string down in my personal experience seldom results in a "thinner" tone.
Regards,
monk
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Hard To Bend .13's Never Had That Problem! Strengthen Your Fingers
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I can bend them, though not up a minor third. Perhaps with effort I could, but in my jazz playing, it's never something I find myself wanting to do. Originally Posted by AZanshin
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I think they do it most for ease of singing, I don't know why but I tend to sing flat/sharp depending on how you look at it, so downtuning 'tunes' my singing. Also, in three pieces like Hendrix and SRV it adds more low end since you're missing that ryhthm guitar. Haven't encountered it in jazz though.
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I have often wondered why more Jazz Guitarists didn't use Eb rather than E tuning as it would enable more open chords and therefore runs to be utilised when playing with horn players. I suppose because of the nature of Jazz Guitar Chords this isn't so much of an issue but i still wonder.
I teach guitar and having to retune mine and students guitar to play some rock songs could be pretty irritating, but gets your ear in pretty quick.
Any of you Jazzers out there actually play in Eb tuning?
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Originally Posted by wjbuc
Personally I don't like open strings in jazz. They sound too unprecise. Too wobbly.
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I was thinking more of using the Eb and Ab strings as bass accompanyment tool and the use of open strings for harp like ringing arpeggios. I haven't tried it but am curious as to whether others have tried it.
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I tried it for nearly the same reason you're saying, maybe it was the gauge or some other factor, but it didn't come out as nice as it did in my head. Originally Posted by wjbuc
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Jimi did this too, right?
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Yes - Hendrix and all of his followers, such as Robin Trower. The closest to a Jazz Player that does this, I believe, is Scott Henderson, but perhaps he only does this on his strat when he plays the blues. Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
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Originally Posted by wjbuc
Because in standard tuning when playing in a "flat" key, the open strings are actually something intersting.
Nobody needs the guitarist to be doubling big ol roots and fifths.
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
That's pretty much the conclusion I reached. The idea sounded cool in concept but in application it was pointless. Not only did the strings sound flappy but the needless repition of bass notes really muddied up the whole scenario. Thats why you only really see it in rock and blues rock settings because they want that thickness its characteristic of the driving sound they're looking for. Weezer and a lot of power pop bands down tune to get that thick sound. And of course in Metal music guys are tuning down to like C and Bb! I guess the crappier music you play the lower you tune
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A little late to the party but I have to tune down a 1/2 step on account of my arthritis. It makes a world of difference to us old geezers to be able to play jazz on our own terms.
Last edited by jazzalta; 07-22-2015 at 12:56 AM. Reason: spelling
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Amazed to see my post still active. I was interested to see whether anyone else had been using Eb tuning as a method of accompaniment. If it works for you thats great. Since then I have given up the day job and just rely on teaching and playing so thats a good tip for arthritis sufferers'. I haven't pursued it myself as too busy with other styles of music including open tunings for folk arrangements, but see nothing wrong with detuning as long as strings aren't too "flappy".
If they do then increase the gauge to compensate. John Pearse makes a string set specifically for DADGAD user's.
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I play "Not even slinky"s on my Les paul which, though not .13's, are quite stiff and intended to be down-tuned a half step. I went to that gauge in order to alleviate a "brittle" sounding high E string through my amp. I had to adjust the truss rod to accommodate the greater tension and higher action of the standard tuning.
It seemed like going down a half step made them easier to manipulate. I didn't tune a half-step down because jazz is largely in standard tuning. I'm also a novice and felt it would be best for me to learn/transcribe/practice in standard tuning. Anyways, switching to those strings has kept my LP as my favorite guitar and thwarted my acquisition syndrome... temporarily.
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Similar to my standard acoustic strings apart from 44 on 5th and 54 on 6th. Would think that would make the Les Paul very powerful with a full tone. Thanks for that , hadn't seen those around before. They would be ideal for Eb I suspect. I have 1 guitar tuned like that for transcribing blues and rock records where they have used that tuning. These strings would definitely make for a fuller sound.
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Apparently Hawkwind used to tune down to make it easier to play with an alto sax. Like a lot of non-jazz-enlightened guitarists, they liked to play in E a lot, so tuning down a half step had them playing in Eb alongside an Eb saxophone. Saves the effort of translating to the transposed key of the saxophone.
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Scott Henderson tunes down on that record with Denis chambers and Gary Willis
its good to to have open bass strings for rock and blues
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