Minor IV chord?

[jzucker]

Right, I agree there 100%, but again. Let me clarify even further.

I'm looking for a tune that modulates down a Major 3rd by way of a 6251. This would make the 6 chord sound as the 4 minor in the origonal key (for at least a few beats before the modulation becomes clear) a la green dolphin street, only to Ab not Eb.

Or the same thing only 36251 to Db.

The reason is, these "minor four" chords would have different "choice" scales related to their function in the new key.... maybe. I dunno, that's why I'm asking the question

Right but I don't see how that invalidates the existence of a minor iv chord?

[timscarey]

Right but I don't see how that invalidates the existence of a minor iv chord?

What? Are you just arguing to argue? This response has nothing to do with the question.

[jzucker]

What? Are you just arguing to argue? This response has nothing to do with the question.

dude, chill out. Look at the thread title. WHAT ARE YOU EVEN ARGUING ABOUT????

[JonnyPac]

ZZZzzz...

[jzucker]

i don't know what it is about jazz guitar that causes so much chest beating and posturing - particularly in theory discussions. I'd prefer if we'd all just demonstrate what we're talking about in an audio clip because words just don't make it.

[timscarey]

dude, chill out. Look at the thread title. WHAT ARE YOU EVEN ARGUING ABOUT????

I'm not arguing anything. I'm asking a question. We found 2 clearly different funtions of an F minor chord in the key of C.

Just looking for any examples of it being used differently. I've posed the question like 3 times already.

[JonnyPac]

Ok, I'll wake up and give my two cents...

If the progression is a backdoor Fm7 Bb7 to Cmaj. Thay are borrowed from Cm (Eb) via modal interchange. They are ii V7 in Eb. It is sometimes /it's 6th. Fm/D is the common Dm7b5 G7 C source too.

If the Fm has no 7th in the line or symbol it might be MM. The following Bb7 might be Mixolydian or Lydian dom. depending on the same note in question, the E natural. They both sound great, it just a matter on the given tune.

In the good old F Fm C progression, it goes both ways too.

The sleepwalkin changes are C Am Fm G7. The Fm can also be Dm7b5. It creates a sub-dom type chord either way.

Maybe that will help...

Since I think in major keys only, the min iv is ii of the parallel key signature of Eb major... thus the original post, etc. I associate ii with Dorian. I also think of the lest amount of key signature modification as sounding "right" thus the MM choice. Harmonic major has too big of a gap for my ear to consider; I hear another tone in between.

[timscarey]

So, ill try to use modal interchange to frame the question.

Any examples of Fm being clearly borrowed from Ab or Db as opposed to Eb or Fmm?

[JonnyPac]

I don't hear those as first choices, but they are next up for sure if the others fail in a given context.

[JonnyPac]

If you go ape with modal interchange with the least amount of key signature modification the key of Bb is the closest to C and therefore it is 1st stop for borrowed chords not found in G or F. Next is Eb and then Ab.

If we see a "min v" in C, it is probably ii of F, not vi of Bb, or iii of Eb. Our ears love established keys and naturally pull from nearby ones given the opportunity. If there is another signifier, then our ears adapt to that and so on. IF the Gm has a b6, we'd hear Aeolian before we hear phrygian... if the chord is Gsusb9 "phrygian" we finally hear phrygian.

[timscarey]

4 bars

CMaj7 - Amin7 - Abmaj7 - Fmin7 repeat.

So, to me, this Fm sounds at home as part of a plagel cadence to the C as well as the 6 in Ab. Its an isolated example, but how about aeolean here?

[JonnyPac]

I hear C Maj, A Nat min, Ab lydian, F dorian. The D note sounds good over each.

[timscarey]

Indeed. As do I, that example failed.

What if you put a Dbmaj7 after the Ab chord? But then, it sounds like a modulation to F minor, not four minor. It does still resolve back to the C though.

My last student just came in while I was posting and we spent the lesson trying different options, all we really learned was that modulating down a major third sounds real nice. And that without establishing a new key before hand that includes a Db, the Fmin7 - CMaj7 relationship sounds more natural as dorian - ionian

[JonR]

I'm a huge Radiohead fan.

Just to poke my nose in here...
Radiohead - as you may know - are big fans of the minor iv chord (however you want to describe it). "My Iron Lung" and "No Surprises", to name 2.
They use modal interchange in more involved (and fascinating) ways too. It's partly what makes their chord sequences so interesting. (Modal interchange is standard in rock, in terms of "borrowing from the parallel minor" - it's been a common sound for 45 years at least - but Radiohead find more interesting ways of mixing their tonalities up.)

[JonnyPac]

Hells yes. I grew up on grunge and Radiohead. I learned a lot about progressions from them, the The Beatles, and other non-jazz modern music. I disagree that the absence of classical function in pop makes learning theory through it a dead end road. It just poses new challenges!

[coleman]

i just think of it as a borrowed chord from the minor scale or at least thats what i have been taught

[brwnhornet59]

I like using harmonic minor. I generally use the 5th degree (phrygian dominant), over an altered V. On the other hand i listen to a lot of Dimeola and gypsy jazz. It's funny, i hear harmonic minor easier than melodic minor. I had to train my ear to lydian b7. That did it for me.


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