Lydian Chromatic Concept ?

[Robertkoa]

I remember trying to read this years ago at University Of Miami........

Is it true that there are only 6.7 people in the world who fully understand this ?

Can someone give me a REALLY simplified condensed version and is it more for improv or composition ?

[ksjazzguitar]

Maybe only 6.7 people understand it because the book is so dang expensive.

I had a teacher who studied this once. He said it was interesting but that it was just another system. If I can find a cheap copy I'll probably look into it one of these days.

Peace,
Kevin

[randalljazz]

ha, ha, ha...yeah. george russell passed away last year, so that leaves...

Miles reportedly summarized the LCC succinctly by saying, "F should be where middle C is on the piano" [white notes: F-F = lydian, rather than major = C-C] from wiki:

George Russell (composer) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

not an acolyte myself, but having read a couple chapters, the short answer is NO. this is a serious time commitment. couldn't say what value it may hold for anyone. russell's music is great: ezz-thetics, stratusphunk...

George Russell - Discography

[P4guitar]

I actually bought his LCC book decades ago in an attempt to learn some sort of shortcut to jazz nirvana or more specifically, a system that allowed me to avoid addressing all the chord and key changes found in jazz.

I was coming from the blues/country/rock paradigm and wanted to play like John McLaughlin. To say I was unprepared for LCC, or anything more complex than I-IV-V would be an understatement

Recently I viewed some YouTube videos on George Russell and was quite impressed with the man and his music. I'm trying to get the willpower to give his concept another chance.

[paynow]

The different perspectives stated here are all valuable but you really need to find out for yourself. Everyone will take different things from the book. It's complicated in many ways yet simple in others. What I finally took from it was the idea that there are really no wrong notes.

I've studied it extensively and I'm no genius. You just really need to focus on it. And yes, it is expensive; $135. I borrowed it first from a music library and read through it to see if I wanted to purchase it. There were some things I understood and many things I did not. I realized when I was done reading it that I would need to study it at the piano and go through the compositional exercises in the book.

So I bought it and it sat in the box for a year because I was frightened of it. Finally I got off my a-s and got to work. I found it to be very valuable in terms of composition, which is really what the current edition is about. I came up with some music I'm very proud of. The older editions were more about using it for improvisation, mainly because they came out in the early and late 50s and a select group of jazz musicians were studying the Concept to advance jazz. Now it's more about using it to write.

There's also a great bio that came out recently about George Russell recently:

Amazon.com: George Russell: The Story of an American Composer (African American Cultural Theory and Heritage) (9780810869974): Duncan Heining: Books

It's been a long time coming; Russell is many times a mere footnote in the bios of people who he influenced tremendously.

I'm in the middle of reading it; borrowed this from the library too because its about 50 bucks. One thing's for sure: there is nothing about George Russell that is cheap!

Recently I viewed some YouTube videos on George Russell and was quite impressed with the man and his music. I'm trying to get the willpower to give his concept another chance.

On the thread I mention in this post is one of the YouTube Vids; "The Subject Is Jazz" from 1958.

I had to get that willpower too, 4thstuning. I'm very glad I did!

[Robertkoa]

I can understand the "there are no wrong notes" thing as long as they are resolved to a chord tone or extension or what I call a ' melodic cadence ' .

What I didn't get then and this is probably a gross oversimplification ( but I love oversimplification in Music Theory type stuff sometimes ) is he was sort of extending the Parent Key concept, I think that was part of it.

I like Miles Davis' interpretation- but probably means a lot more if you're Miles than if you"re me.

[paynow]

I can understand the "there are no wrong notes" thing as long as they are resolved to a chord tone or extension or what I call a ' melodic cadence ' .

What I didn't get then and this is probably a gross oversimplification ( but I love oversimplification in Music Theory type stuff sometimes ) is he was sort of extending the Parent Key concept, I think that was part of it.

Yes, most definitely. At points I had a hard time wrapping my pea brain around that. A lot of reading and re-reading was happening on my part to get through the book.

He was basically promoting the idea of Lydian replacing Tonic/Ionian as he felt the sound of the #4/b5 has a stronger gravitational pull to the ear, based on theories outlined in the beginning of the book, some of which he claims are scientific. So, all the modes are based off the Lydian scale. And that is much more of a gross oversimplification than what I just quoted from you. Yes, he discusses parent scales and modes.

I later on came to the conclusion, through statements Russell makes in the book, that the subtext is "no wrong notes" meaning in a contextual sense, of the tune, not just that you can play like s--t and get away with it. It's sort of like Picasso could paint in an abstract fashion because he could also copy the masters and paint the apple in the bowl that hangs in the Holiday Inn lobby, or if you asked him to paint a portrait of your grandmother he could do it and do it superbly. He didn't just spawn from under a rock with set of paints, slop them on a canvas and declare "I'm an abstract artist!". You've got to know the rules to break them.

I got to it at the end of studying the book and it really gave me a lot of insight.

I'm finding out in reading his bio what a down to earth guy Russell was; the LCCOTO book is complex enough that I think it sometimes gives the mistaken impression that he was some overblown intellectual that no one could relate to. He came from Cincinnati to NY with the intention of making his living as a drummer, then met and heard Max Roach and decided he'd be better off composing for a living. He had a lot of trials growing up and wasn't the greatest student, definitely marched to his own drummer (no pun intended) and had this great drive for self discovery and study that no school can teach you. A fascinating man. While a bit reserved emotionally he was friends with many of the movers and shakers in jazz and most loved and respected him, though there were some that didn't dig the music he put out.

One of the things with LCCOTO that I think makes it hard, putting it in the "only 6.7 people get it" category, is that it's so jargon heavy. It has it's own particular nomenclature that makes it difficult to understand at times until you get used to it (eg, "ingoing vs. outgoing" tones, meaning consonant vs. dissonant). It's like when I first tried to learn to shoot craps; the game isn't hard at all, the lingo makes it hard to get.

And that combined with buying books is what keeps my wallet empty.

[rabbit]

Sonic illustration:

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Sonic illustration:

"He's taking his own time to teach you assholes shit that you need to know if you are interested in playing music."

Classic.

[rabbit]

BigDaddy,

That IS funny.

Got to warn you to be careful about your
exposure to youtube comments.
Less fun & more damaging than masturbation, even,
or so the priest told me. I didn't ask how he knew this.

[cosmic gumbo]

LCC seems to be based around the math involved with incorporating the b5 into harmony, because of the symmetry of the b5 being the middle pitch of the chromatic scale. It's just advanced organization of bebop harmonic logic. It's part of why the tritone sub succeeds so magically.

[JonnyPac]

Jeff Brent: Discrepancies in the "Lydian Chromatic Concept"

This feller Jeff Brent has read it and found some discrepancies. The essay is also a good introduction to the basic ideas.

Though I do not use the LCC, I love listening to George Russell's music. Jazz Workshop with Bill Evans is a "desert island" recording for sure. (Barry's guitar playing is sweet too.)

[JonnyPac]

These where Jeff's conclusions:


1. It�s ok to play a #4

2. I can play a whole bunch of scales (the same scales that I already know) over chords (the same chords that I already know), but I have to learn to call them different names

3. A side effect of the lack of unity makes the level of physical violence more prevalent.

4. The author thinks �The Star Spangled Banner� is Lydian



Very funny. lol.

[docbop]

Dam this thread, now I have to dig thru my boxes and find my old copy of LCC. When I first went to music school back in the late 70's LCC was the hot improv topic and many schools and seminars were teaching it. I'm a big fan of #11 on major quality chords.

I'll have to go read Jeff Brent's article. I talked to him online and very interesting musician.

[paynow]

"He's taking his own time to teach you assholes shit that you need to know if you are interested in playing music."

Classic.

Hah! I've seen this vid before but never bothered to dig through the comments. Only on YouTube; any discourse, no matter how well intentioned, turns into a schoolyard fight. He really doesn't mention all "the shit that you need to know if you are interested in playing music", such as how to fill out unemployment forms and make a pack of Ramen noodles last for a week (the secret is oregano, PM me for details).

Jeff Brent: Discrepancies in the "Lydian Chromatic Concept"

This feller Jeff Brent has read it and found some discrepancies. The essay is also a good introduction to the basic ideas.

Though I do not use the LCC, I love listening to George Russell's music. Jazz Workshop with Bill Evans is a "desert island" recording for sure. (Barry's guitar playing is sweet too.)

This is very well done. I've seen the arguments about the overtone series before, from many musicians, but this is the most well laid out I've seen. I also like the fact that he lists the Ionian equivalents to Russell's Lydian scales. I try not to approach it that way, but it's good knowledge to have.

I need to get a copy of Jazz Workshop; it seems to be out of print. Hopefully they bring it back.

[Robertkoa]

Well- back then I was reading different theory books and trying to expand my harmonic ability and knowledge to compose and be able to move in and out of different( remote ) keys or chordal areas, searching for "harmonic glue " kind of but that book though it may be brilliant did not do that for me..............

My little jokes should not be taken to be about the Man or his Music- just the darn book!

[Aristotle]

Sonic illustration:

That's a lot of tube to sit through just to hear that in the key of C, if you stack notes in thirds from C, that the F# sounds better than the F natural.

It's not in the vid, but if you do the same thing starting on the G note, the C# sounds better (to me in most jazz contexts) than the C natural.

[wolflen]

this is the harmonic concept from the twilight zone...its easy to grasp really...you apply all your understanding from the overtone series to simple diatonic progressions and pretend it sounds ... well... in tune...

the melodic minor scale and its modes should be more than enough for most players to explore the "outer limits" of harmonic and melodic exploration in the most extreme ventures...miles, weather report, mclaughlin come to mind at once..trying to apply a layer of "harmonic" flavor on top of that seems like an application to a nervous breakdown..

for those that have the time and energy to explore LCC i wish them well and must admit i would like to have insight into why they were drawn into this study..for me the regular lydian dominate scale is complex enough to flavor most of what i play..

over the years i have only met a few jazz players that even use the lydian dominate with any degree of skill..most just use vanilla scales but with some very tasty twists and turns...

play well

wolf

[M-ster]

Jeff Brent: Discrepancies in the "Lydian Chromatic Concept"

Liked that discussion and hadn't seen it before. Thanks, JP!

[Robertkoa]

The overtone series is pretty much a natural physical law- you can bend it a little IMO( inversions,quartal harmony,ambiguous voicings, polychords) ( which is why I'm on here to learn from you guys ) but you can't break it.

Like if your digital tuner says your guitar's in tune BUT you get less " beating " by tweaking the tuning ( beats - the way piano tuners used to do it )- chances are the tuning with less " beating" on unisons and triads is going to sound better.

I could see how there's no wrong notes ( as long as you resolve them REALLY QUICKLY to a chord tone or extension).

*The Smart Ass Improvising Chromatic Concept( SAICC )- use the Chromatic scale for EVERYTHING but skip around a lot, and make it sound really good.


* I came up with this by myself- can I be rich and famous now ?

[hed_b94]

Sonic illustration:

It's nice to have loud sustained chord so no one can hear you.

It's pretty simple why the F sharp sounds better in this context: Triton (from B to F) is much more dissonant than Triton+3 octaves (C to F#)

But when playing the lydian as a scale and not as a quartal chord, some tension-and-release is missing, the dominant is now on the 2nd degree, and it's solution isn't as strong as V-I cadance, and doesn't give a strong sense of tonic.

[JonR]

I actually bought his LCC book decades ago in an attempt to learn some sort of shortcut to jazz nirvana or more specifically, a system that allowed me to avoid addressing all the chord and key changes found in jazz.

Oops...

I was coming from the blues/country/rock paradigm and wanted to play like John McLaughlin.

Oops...

To say I was unprepared for LCC, or anything more complex than I-IV-V would be an understatement

Yeah... buying the LCC in those circumstances is like diving into Niagara Falls in order to learn to swim...

[JonR]

It's nice to have loud sustained chord so no one can here you.

LOL. The pad sound is also a little superfluous.

It's pretty simple why the F sharp sounds better in this context: Triton (from B to F) is much more dissonant than Triton+3 octaves (C to F#)

Exactly. The lydian concept ignores the fact that the tritone is supposed to be dissonant. F is not supposed to sound consonant aganst the tonic C chord; it's the necessary opposition that our tonal system requires. It's idiotic to expect that a natural 11th should be a nice-sounding extension on a major chord.
IOW, the fact that you can't stack all 7 notes on top of C and make a nice chord is irrelevant. Of course you can't, and why should you?
(It's a little like the inventor of the motor car suggesting that horses are flawed because they have no wheels...)

However... the other problem is that we are working with equal temperament here. Those 5ths are all a couple of cents flat of a true pure 5th (3:2 frequency ratio). 5th by 5th, that discrepancy is negligible. But by the time you get to the 7th perfect 5th - the F# - we are a long way out from a pure relationship to the C.
In fact, the 11th overtone of C is almost exactly in between F and F#, in equal temperament. So from that perspective, lydian is no more "natural" a scale than ionian. (Or maybe mixolydian, since there is no overtone matching a major 7th until you get to the 15th, while the 7th overtone is kind of near-ish to a minor 7th. Still 32 cents flat, mind.)

So, if the LCC is based on the notion of acoustic naturalness, it falls down immediately. (I'm not totally sure it is, in fact. I don't think Russell can have been that dumb.)

Still, it's quite true that a #11 extension is more consonant on a maj7 chord than a P11. That's because of consonant intervals the #11 makes with other chord tones, not with the root - mainly the P5 with the maj7, and a maj3 with the 9th.
In addition, adding a P11 to the chord creates two opposing functional sounds: you get a G7 chord mixed together with a C major. Functional chaos! That's why it sounds bad.

But when playing the lydian as a scale and not as a quartal chord, some tension-and-release is missing, the dominant is now on the 2nd degree, and it's solution isn't as strong as V-I cadance, and doesn't give a strong sense of tonic.

True.
In fact, the "dominant" of lydian mode is still the 5th step, but you're right there's no (or at least less) sense of cadence moving to the "tonic" from any other chord.
But then the argument for modal jazz is that it's non-functional anyway. When actually playing in lydian mode, one is not expecting or looking for key-style cadences. Just as there is no "dominant function", there is no "tonic function" either. (It's the wheels-on-a-horse category error again.)

And when one plays a lydian tonic chord in a major key (ie adding a chromactic #11), the rest of the chords are still all diatonic major key chords. Eg, we'd be going from Dm7-G7 to Cmaj7#11, not D7-Gmaj7-Cmaj7#11.

[Spirit59]

If Lydian is the "center of the universe" then why does it require *more* care when voicing a V7alt to Imaj7#4 than it does when voicing a V7alt to any garden variety Imaj7? Even with shitty voice leading, resolving to a non-lydian I chord will sound stronger - not that I don't absolutely *love* lydian sounding chords....

As for LCC....

I've heard a lot about it, but all of it has been just vague explanations, with zero meat. Even people who have spent the dough and read the material seem to come away with very little in terms of anything concrete.

Bring up the subject of the LCC with name players, especially the one's who knew Russell and you'll hear about what a great guy he was, and maybe be pointed to some of his music / compositions. But if you want anything specific RE: LCC, all of a sudden it's like, "Uh...hey - I think I hear my mom calling me..."

One could get the feeling that nobody wants to call BS on the LCC because Russell was such a nice guy....

I think Mick Goodrick might be able to shed some light but I don't know...

Well....enough rambling - I'd better get my ass off of here and get back to studying Harmolodics!

[JonnyPac]

This is Ravel setting up the LCC with stacked P5ths up to the #11 (#4) way before GR!!

See 2:40 in this lesson for more explanation: