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I have enjoyed this and the Blue Bossa threads. It keeps me practicing and learning songs I haven't played before. Another tune would be cool.
What about the F13/C7#9 groove? Do mean replace the whole A section with the groove?
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12-09-2010 08:24 AM
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Actually, Reg, just before we close up on Miss Jones, I would seriously like to hear your thoughts on the structure as it can only help in future songs.
Also, I just made the time to listen again to your 5/4 version. Sweet. How do you go about such a manipulation? Do you simply stretch each measure to five quarter note beats and fill in accordingly with rhythm and improv, or is more complicated than that?
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I can finally just about comp over this song, using a simple scalar approach. In fact, I just tried to record a session to upload as a way to encourage other jazz newbies to go for it, when for some reason my recording control surface ceased to be recognised by my recording softare (which bizarrely still recognises it as audio output... go figure).
Anyway, given that the F major section is quite long, I find that my lines all begin to sound the same... any suggestions to make those A sections more interesting, while remaining within the realms of beginner improv?
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Hey Ken... yes, same groove through both A section, is similar to pedaling the V or in Ms Jones, C dom., because the ears are use to the changes, when you play in one harmonic area, it creates tension because of your expectations. Most of the time by the time you get to 2nd A section the band would be off on some harmonic, rhythm pattern which compounds the effect,( that would be one of the parts were really having fun improvising, reacting an interacting ), then when we hit the B section, the audience is saved. Pretty standard to play dom. pedal to start 2nd or last players solo on standard short form tunes ... functions like clearing the table, well our ears.
Hey Tony... I'll make video to help explain structure of B section, hell I'll go over A also.
And about changing time sigs. It's not complicated... most of the time we play as simple "head arrangements", head arrangement is name for simple talking about and memorizing on the spot... So someone suggests, the rhythm and style and depending on head, how it translates... if we can't agree in 30 sec. or less , or one player takes melody, and anyone else playing head follows best they can without stepping all over... once you get use to the process... it's pretty simple. In my example.... I did those as first takes... which leads to your last question about lines sounding the same... Do your lines sound the same in your head...
Try and at least hear a simple melody through at least 2 bars, better and more difficult to hear 4 bar line... but start that way, fill in the line as your able... it's like connecting the dots using harmonic area. That's one method of structuring a solo... trying to play/say something and getting better at it each time... with backing tracks it's almost the only way... there's no interaction. Hope helps... I'll try and make video sometime today... Best Reg
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Hey Reg and all,
Originally Posted by Reg
My vote is it's a little bit early for a new tune.
I think if we spread these out a bit they are more special when they do happen. Sort of like waiting for a birthday present or Christmas present. (Scarcity does tend to increase perceived value.)
Perhaps some more could post examples of their playing, if you want to demonstrate something, or if you're looking for critiques.
Also, there is a lot of material here especially in Reg's videos. I've been busy the last couple of weeks... but I was hoping to transcribe/notate a few of the phrases from Reg's videos so we could drill down to the detail a bit. If Reg would give me permission to do that. I could possible do that next week.
Reg would you be okay with me notating some of your phrases and/or chord progressions etc.?
Just my opinion - 2 cents worth.
Cheers,
Frank
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Hey Fep... anything you want, well not anything... please keep in context... there is a big difference between live and recorded music... live music is much more about overall impression... the details get lost... when you go in the studio... at least I play differently, I don't think 1st impression as much, but if you have any problems, let me know, I can write out what I played almost as fast as I play it... I transcribed and made piano lead sheets for one of my source of income as a kid, copied parts, wow...very old school, anyway good luck. Best Reg
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I worked on this tune some more this week, and for me part of learning a tune is also to improvise while singing the improvisation. I usually record it to see how much of the notes I "hit" with the singing.
Ok so here is an example done with a classical guitar and my awful voice. My voice is so awful I'm a bit embarrassed to post this but as this is a common learning thread I decided to post it anyway.
missj2.mp3 - File Shared from Box.net - Free Online File Storage
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Cool Jay... I hear your ideas better while you sing with them. Most of your phrases are 4 bars. I would start to play/ sing 2 bar ideas, with an answer that relates to the simpler 2 bar idea, or just a variation of 1st idea. Would be real cool if you would have something simple through each 8 bar section that ties each two bar phrase. You tend to try and fit to many ideas into each phrase... it's very hard to hear it flow, your connections tend to lose feel. Anything that repeats always helps the feel, melodic or rhythmic. Great way to practice is to play over simple 1 chord groove and practice making your phrases tie together. You begin to develop your personal collection of licks, or what ever you want to call them. Sometimes it's as simple as a rhythmic lick that changes pitches. If I'm not clear let me know and I'll try and play some samples...
Totally dig your style and your a great example for thread, and how to get all you can out of it... keep it comin.. best Reg
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Good evening, jayx123... Originally Posted by jayx123
Congratulations; nothing to be embarrassed about here. Fine scat and excellent (nylon..!) soloing. Ignore Reg, he's just sorely jealous!
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You 'beginners' (or 'learners'...) are far and away beyond that which we mortals aspire to; it's great to follow these threads (well, not exactly 'follow', more like limp behind...). I'm still going over the basic chords of BB, and can't even hear (in my mind...) the 'melody' of HYMMJ, so it's purely from an admirative distance that I read these posts. One day (distant future...) I'll perhaps start a thread for 'real' beginners, where all is spelt out in words of less than one syllable...
Thanks for the track; maybe others will be encouraged to be exposed to critique as bravely as yourself.
Bravo, I say, bravo...
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Thanks Dad, I fined singing while improvising gets me away from auto pilot mode and also helps me with the never ending phrase as I have to breath.
Reg, do you mean play more digital patterns? I do tend to use digital patterns but not enough though, I would really appreciate if you can post some samples.
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Jay - quite a humbling performance there! Thanks for sharing it and keep up the great work.
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Hey Jay... I'm not sure I understand digital samples... But I'll post some samples of what I was talking about... I'll pick a few of your melodic ideas and try and show how I would develop them... Sorry I won't be singing... again, dig your playing... Best Reg
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10x tony and reg,
Reg, I meant "digital patters" as group of notes which are repeated either chromatically or up and down the scale (I think they are also called cells).
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Nice job, Jay! I think what you are doing is great! I can clearly hear where you are going with your improv and your good "feel" and phrasing are perhaps a net result of this approach.
wiz
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I managed a single take of Miss Jones, my first ever attempt at a jazz improvisation.
I'm attaching the link below to invite some constructive humiliation, eh, criticism
Please forgive me for getting momentarily lost at 1:49 and 2:45
but I am hoping that such a painfully slow, beginner's performance might encourage some of the other jazz newbies to post so that we can really develop this thread as a learning forum.
Peace,
Tony
miss jones tony1.mp3 - File Shared from Box.net - Free Online File Storage
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Hi Tony,
Actually that was pretty darn good. There were a few ares in the improv where it didn't seem like you knew what key you were in, but you did recover, and I've had the same problem with this particular song (Gb?? Who the hell thought up that key??). I'm still in the learning process for this one as well, and what I found helpful to navigate through those distantly related keys in the bridge was just to have two places on the neck for each key (Gb, D) where I can target the roots and build stock phrases on them. That way, when I hear that key change coming up, I can "dive-bomb" to those areas of the fretboard, and at least know I'll be established in the new key. Then I let my ear take over.
I think you might want to be a little more "correct" on the notes of the head...you took some liberties that might be interpreted to mean you weren't 100% sure about it. Also, use your vibrato a little more sparingly. (This is something my teacher is always getting on me for, too.) It's not really stylistically correct for jazz guitar, for whatever reason.
Great job, thanks for sharing!!
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Good job Tony well done..
Cheers tom
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Tony that was very good for a first attempt at jazz improv. I would suggest to first just play up and down the key centers scales while the key center change so you will know them on the neck and when you do then start creating phrases and continue from there. I can hear that you have a good phrasing potential and it seems you have a pretty good ear.
thanks for sharing, well done!
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quote---"Please forgive me for getting momentarily lost at 1:49 and 2:45
but I am hoping that such a painfully slow, beginner's performance might encourage some of the other jazz newbies to post so that we can really develop this thread as a learning forum." IMHO, this is an excellent thought for making this forum and this thread more useful for all who want to continue the learning process. Good job for your first recording, Tony.
best wishes,
wiz
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Hey Tony... way cool, really, to me part of being able to play jazz is actually playing, not being afraid to make mistakes, taking chances. You will improve, all the talk is all bull shit with out playing... great job... I'll listen again and try and make some helpful comments...
Best Reg
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Wow, thanks Jeff, Tom, Jay, Wiz, and Reg. It certainly makes me feel better about persevering.
Jeff, your comments are right on: so what you’re saying is that after decades of perfecting a good vibrato technique, I need to stop? J And I’ll try to stick more closely to the head melody next time, it’s just that by the time I get through the B section of Miss Jones, I’m beginning to get bored and want to wander a little J
Jay, I’ll continue to do more of what you are suggesting. The hard part for me is indeed the phrasing – after so many years of playing blues and progressive rock, my ‘old’ phrasing is hard to break. And of course, in that music it wasn’t as essential to know so many scales in so many positions! Gb indeed?!!! I suppose it is easier to grasp than F# though J
Reg – I’d love to hear what you have to say…
Here’s to the next attempt and the next song!
Cheers,
Tony
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Before we finish with Miss Jones, would anyone more capable than I be willing to post a version using just guide tones and/or arps? Perhaps with a verbal or written commentary?
Would this be a generally good idea to start each new song with before getting into freer improv?
If someone can do this, I'd then be happy to transform the guide-notes or arps into neck-diagrams to include in my "Miss Jones Lesson booklet"...
Cheers,
Tony
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Sorry I'm late with this. I was down with the flu for a couple of weeks in December.
Inspired by Reg's 5/4 idea, I came up with this melody variation. It differs from Tom's 5/4 BIAB track in that I'm squeezing 2 measures of 4/4 into one of 5/4. For example the first measure of F(Maj7) fits on the first 3 beats of the first measure of 5/4, then the second measure of F#dim fits on the last 2 beats of the first measure of 5/4.
Unlike Reg's 5/4 version, I play this thing pretty fast--like 200BPM. I've been doing it for a few weeks. I still can't solo over it to my satisfaction. But today I played it with a friend: I cooked on the melody and comping, and he cooked on the solos. Sorry we didn't record it.
I use the first four measures as the intro and turnaround between choruses. The last four measures vamping F13/C to C7#9 are used as the first 2 A sections of the final solo, again following Reg's advice pedaling on C, then going to the bridge and playing it out.
I have another version where the intro and turns are in 6/4, the head is in 5/4, and the solos in 7/4. But it's all based on the straight 5/4 version presented here.
This chart has some chord simplification and subs.
Have You Met Miss Jones 5/4 arr. KB pdf
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