Does analyzing miss the point in music?

**mike walker** · 09-20-2010, 04:28 AM

I read or heard this somewhere. And i really don't understand it.

I sometimes feel, that instructions are given, but these instructions are not followed by the instructors.

I see it with many issues. You don't need this, you don't need that.

How do they know what i need?

What they mean is, 'this doesn't seem to work for me, therefore you should leave it too'.

This is more like 'If i don't understand it, you shouldn't use it'.

I understand this is delicate, but i have my flame suit on.

**Shadow of the Sun** · 09-20-2010, 05:44 AM

Music is something to enjoy and become engaged in.

If analyzing music is a way for you to find new beauty in it and to become engaged in it, then no, it's not missing the point.

A pertinent quote here is: a the joy of a magician is twofold; first, seeing the trick, and then seeing how the trick is done. That applies just as well to music.

**mike walker** · 09-20-2010, 05:54 AM

Originally Posted by Shadow of the Sun

Music is something to enjoy and become engaged in.

If analyzing music is a way for you to find new beauty in it and to become engaged in it, then no, it's not missing the point.

A pertinent quote here is: a the joy of a magician is twofold; first, seeing the trick, and then seeing how the trick is done. That applies just as well to music.

Agreed.

Reventlov posted a lovely quote attributed to Bruce lee which was to do with
how he thought (or more to the point, didn't) about Kicks and punches. A kick was a kick and a punch was a punch. Then, and I'm paraphrasing here, when he learned more it was more a series of intricate movements, that needed constant thought and refinement. After all this thought, over years, the thinking sunk into the background, and the movements just became a kick and a punch again.

**Little Jay** · 09-20-2010, 07:57 AM

If you like doing it, then it's good for you.
Ignore the methods or only take from them what you like.

I don't follow methods, because I want to sound like me, not like a method.

If you analyze most well known (jazz)musicians you will find that they develloped a voice of their own because of their limitations and shortcomings...

Disclaimer: just my point of view, that from others may differ but I won't kill them for it.

**mike walker** · 09-20-2010, 08:07 AM

Originally Posted by Little Jay

Disclaimer: just my point of view, that from others may differ but I won't kill them for it.

And welcome it is too.

I'm more about the analysis of music in general, rather than someone else's specific method.

Why does it sound the way it does? What is dissonance? Is it ugly? Is tension necessary? If i don't like it now, does that mean i won't like it tomorrow?

Why does music 'grow on' people?

Many questions. Opinions, in my opinion, need to welcome other opinions. not fear them.

**Little Jay** · 09-20-2010, 09:58 AM

Very valid questions indeed.

Especially the proces of music 'growing' on people interests me also, since I have waisted many years disregarding all music that was not 3-chord blues. I was so stuck in the pentatonic minor scale that I just could not solo on something in a major-key. I just didn't feel that sound....

And my girlfriend - who's not a jazzmusician - still thinks I am playing out of key when I'm playing a diminished scale or a half-tone-whole-tone scale ;-). I guess that's what makes jazz sometimes music for insiders only.

Interesting phenomenon: I bought this very cheap toy-xylophone for my 1-year old daughter (she loves it and plays it over and over). It has 8 bars with approximately a major scale. Approximately because it's horribly out of tune! But... after some weeks apparently my "inner ear" got used to it and it didn't sound out of tune to me anymore, just different.....

**mike walker** · 09-20-2010, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by Little Jay

Interesting phenomenon: I bought this very cheap toy-xylophone for my 1-year old daughter (she loves it and plays it over and over). It has 8 bars with approximately a major scale. Approximately because it's horribly out of tune! But... after some weeks apparently my "inner ear" got used to it and it didn't sound out of tune to me anymore, just different.....

This is worth quoting.

Some music needs you to walk to it. Rather than just sitting there waiting for it to come to you. It needs effort.

So often a melody has hit my ear, and i sing it for a day, and it kind of wears out. Other times, i give stuff, that i am initially skeptical of, a chance, and a few days later i'm trying to convince everyone how great it is.

**mr. beaumont** · 09-20-2010, 10:23 AM

I don't know how one could ever expect to play jazz and not spend some time sitting down and analyzing what they're doing.

There's no need to be delicate, and if you get flamed in this thread, it's by someone who just doesn't know how.

**Solo Flight** · 09-20-2010, 11:48 AM

Little Jay - Just a thought about the xylophone - I would get rid of it and find something in tune. I grew up with an out of tune piano (by a whole step!) and I'm convinced my ear is the worse for it to this day. Your daughter's ear is being trained every day - might as well have it trained correctly!

**Little Jay** · 09-20-2010, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by Solo Flight

Little Jay - Just a thought about the xylophone - I would get rid of it and find something in tune. I grew up with an out of tune piano (by a whole step!) and I'm convinced my ear is the worse for it to this day. Your daughter's ear is being trained every day - might as well have it trained correctly!

Hmmm. You might be right...... but she loves it so much that I'll will try tuning it first by filing the bars... (won't work if it's too low of course) or find a proper one in exactly the same colours....

(Oh and I hope my remark about my opinion... won't kill you for it etc. didn't set the tone for this discussion... I was just trying to express it's just my opinion, but since English is not my mother tongue I might have hit the wrong tone.....)

**oilywrag** · 09-20-2010, 12:19 PM

I would think Mike that by the time you get to a certain level a playing ability,thinking doesn't come into your playing,it is more of knowing,knowing what sound comes out of your guitar when you play certain frets.That only comes with hard work and practice,your ear and fingers are in tune.All they require is your imagination to create musical magic.
Some times it works sometimes it doesn't.I think Reg said in another post,a bad night for a good guitarist will only be noticed by him and not the audience.As for analyzing what you have just done or what someone else has been playing.Well if it helps then fine.Then again I am new to all this so what do I know.Just my £0.02p worth.

Cheers Tom

**musicalbodger** · 09-20-2010, 02:04 PM

Quick answer to your question. No.

You could ask, " Does analising miss the point of art/painting/sculpture?"

No, it enhances one's appreciation of the more advanced forms of the art (and allows one to spot the bollocks).

I will be back — just off for some food.

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 09-20-2010, 02:13 PM

On a practical level. Suppose you hear a solo that you really dig and want to learn stuff from it. Being able to analyze what's going on will help you learn more from it than just copping licks.

Of course music can't be reduced to rules, but no one is really claiming that.

**fep** · 09-20-2010, 09:44 PM

I'm guessing different strokes for different folks.

Consider a savant that has an incredible ability to memorize and play back just about anything he/she hears. How do they analyze music?

I'm pretty much an average joe but my analytical skills are one of my strong points. For me one thing musical analysis does is it helps me understand and categorize sounds. This helps me develop musical skills more quickly.

An example at a very elementry level:

At first a couple notes was just a sound. I can find those notes on the guitar with a bit of searching.

Later I learned to label it as a major sixth (and I learned the first two notes of "My Bonnie..." and the first two notes of 'Crazy' are major sixths). Categorizing that sound and labeling it helped me properly learn that interval.

Now, after categorizing that sound, I hear a major sixth and I just know what it is. I don't have to search to find it on a guitar, I don't need the guitar at all, I just know what it is.

It's the same thing for chord quality, scale types, cadence types, chord progressions, etc. When you analyze it and categorize it in your brain it's much easier to 'really learn' it, remember it, and to 'stick it in your ear'.

**fumblefingers** · 09-20-2010, 10:13 PM

you are playing out of key when you play a symmetric scale. "key" is diatonic.

perhaps you need some more time with analysis?

just kidding of course.

Originally Posted by Little Jay

Very valid questions indeed.

Especially the proces of music 'growing' on people interests me also, since I have waisted many years disregarding all music that was not 3-chord blues. I was so stuck in the pentatonic minor scale that I just could not solo on something in a major-key. I just didn't feel that sound....

And my girlfriend - who's not a jazzmusician - still thinks I am playing out of key when I'm playing a diminished scale or a half-tone-whole-tone scale ;-). I guess that's what makes jazz sometimes music for insiders only.

Interesting phenomenon: I bought this very cheap toy-xylophone for my 1-year old daughter (she loves it and plays it over and over). It has 8 bars with approximately a major scale. Approximately because it's horribly out of tune! But... after some weeks apparently my "inner ear" got used to it and it didn't sound out of tune to me anymore, just different.....

**jayx123** · 09-22-2010, 12:12 PM

I improvise by key centers so I need to analyze the harmony to find the key centers and the modulations.

I think that analyzing solos in the context of the harmony is very important in order to understand this solo in the harmonic context, this will give you the means to take the lick and use it as motif for development

jeffstocksmusic · 09-22-2010, 01:08 PM

On a practical level. Suppose you hear a solo that you really dig and want to learn stuff from it. Being able to analyze what's going on will help you learn more from it than just copping licks

I can't agree more!

In my case, it seems to condense learning concepts that would normally take months/years to days/weeks. I have learned more, and retained more, from transcribing and analyzing than any other method of learning. And believe me, I have tried just about everything!

My opinion...just transcribing a single solo and really looking at what the player is doing (note choice/tone/phrasing/space/articulation) can have fairly profound impacts on your playing.

**mike walker** · 09-23-2010, 05:23 AM

Thank the lawd we all seem to be on the same page.

I was worried for a millisecond.

**Flyin' Brian** · 09-23-2010, 07:39 AM

Originally Posted by mike walker

Some music needs you to walk to it. Rather than just sitting there waiting for it to come to you. It needs effort.

This quote brings uh.....jazz to mind.

So often a melody has hit my ear, and i sing it for a day, and it kind of wears out. Other times, i give stuff, that i am initially skeptical of, a chance, and a few days later i'm trying to convince everyone how great it is.

Kind of like that painting you see that doesn't quite do it for you.....at first.

Originally Posted by mike walker

Yep, this is my feeling. I'm not really delicate, but for some weird reason discussing this stuff drives people nuts.

The amount of analyzing varies with the individual. Sometimes one person needs to analyze something that is automatically assimilated by another. Then again the analysis may turn to "What is it about that (melody, chord sequence, harmonic/rhythmic structure) that allowed me to assimilate it so easily?"

Have you ever wondered what it would be like to "see" the fretboard through your persona idol's eyes?

He/she has analyzed it differently than you for sure.

jeffstocksmusic · 09-23-2010, 07:57 AM

Have you ever wondered what it would be like to "see" the fretboard through your persona idol's eyes?

I have thought that about Allan Holdsworth. I can only imagine what he sees when he looks at the neck of the guitar. It has to be like a satellite image of New York City or something. Zillions and zillions of connections and pathways. Love him or hate him, he clearly 'sees' music in a different way.

**mike walker** · 09-23-2010, 08:07 AM

Originally Posted by Flyin' Brian

Kind of like that painting you see that doesn't quite do it for you.....at first.

The amount of analyzing varies with the individual. Sometimes one person needs to analyze something that is automatically assimilated by another. Then again the analysis may turn to "What is it about that (melody, chord sequence, harmonic/rhythmic structure) that allowed me to assimilate it so easily?"

Have you ever wondered what it would be like to "see" the fretboard through your persona idol's eyes?

He/she has analyzed it differently than you for sure.

Yes i often wondered about that.

I also found the more i analyzed stuff, the easier it became to analyze stuff!!!

No brainer really.

A certain kind of dispassionate objective view is needed to really open the doors of music. I would always encourage something that has been instrumental in furthering my understanding of music. But more importantly, i would encourage my students to explore any avenue, that might or might not be a different path to mine, that has the possibility of opening up their own, individually creative channels.

**mike walker** · 09-23-2010, 08:10 AM

Originally Posted by musicalbodger

Quick answer to your question. No.

You could ask, " Does analising miss the point of art/painting/sculpture?"

No, it enhances one's appreciation of the more advanced forms of the art (and allows one to spot the bollocks).

I will be back — just off for some food.

Now that, Bodge, was a big meal.

**musicalbodger** · 09-23-2010, 12:25 PM

Mike, you've got to give a man the opportunity to have a post-prandial nap!

**musicalbodger** · 09-23-2010, 01:52 PM

Now that I've woken up......

Doesn't the confusion/disagreement come from the fact that as musicians we have to analise in order to learn and expand our skill/creativity/palette, but, as a listener, it's a different situation.

A non-musician will listen to a performance without any thought of analising what is going on and, consequently, will accept what the composer/performer is presenting them with without the distraction of trying to work out what is happening or how it is being achieved. A musician listening to the same performance has to turn off a large part of the brain to achieve this same effect. Consequently, it's quite possible for the musician to analise a performance to death and "miss the point of the music".

Was it worth the wait? Nah, didn't think so.