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It's like cooking. You start with someone's recipe whether you know it or not. To get good means acquiring a certain feel. That means practicing a lot. Then you can tweak the recipe and maybe write your own. It's unlikely that it will be totally unprecedented but that's not important.
If learning how to do it well takes the magic out of it for you, there's a problem with your attitude, along the lines of, failure to mature. Did you really think you would acquire magical powers? Meanwhile, the audience is hungry.
If you think you're going to make a good pan of lasagne because you're a born artist upon whom the gods shower inspiration, you're just being silly.
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04-11-2011 12:52 PM
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I'm definitely guilty of wanting to run before I can walk! I think there are self proclaimed 'teachers' who suffer from this as well though.
Originally Posted by mike walker
What do you think about players who are higly skilled at analysis and debating theory but yet seem to have only obtained mediocre playing skills? Is this a common pitfall amongst real jazz musicians or simply an internet phenomenon?
What steps should the novice jazzer take to avoid this outcome?
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....and thats a good thing...IMHO...the different between what I can do and what I want to do keeps me motivated..
I know a lot more theory than what I can actually execute but that creates the "pull" to get to the next level...Nothing wrong with running a little...learning what not to do has as much value as knowing what to do...
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Absolutely. You have the balance. You are aware of what you don't know, and what you need to know, to get to where you want to be. Originally Posted by bass2man
So many don't grasp this fundamental.
So many students come back to me, 5 years after an initial lesson with...'ok....I get it now....let's begin..'.
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This is because they equate 'more info' with 'getting better'. Originally Posted by Jazzpunk
Ya get better when you deepen your understanding of a concept, not just intellectually, but experientially.
What steps should the novice jazzer take to avoid this outcome?[/QUOTE]
Clear your path. Be serious about the fundamentals. Love the little things.
Learn to feel the space, as time, as phrasing, as the dancing partner of what you play. Seriously.
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Words to live by! Thanks. Originally Posted by mike walker
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Btw, when can we expect some new recordings from you Mike? I remember you mentioning not too long ago that you had some projects in the works.
Would love to add some more of your playing to my iTunes!
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Thanks for asking JP. Originally Posted by Jazzpunk
Album out June 6th with a band I got together with Steve Swallow, Adam Nussbaum, and a fantastic piano player called Gwilym Simcock.
The band is called The Impossible Gentlemen and the album will be the same name. Some of my tunes, some Gwil's and one of em Adam's.
We tour with that band in June in the Uk and in Europe Oct/Nov....(With Steve Rodby on Bass coz Swallow is booked already??!! with Carla).
Bestest,
Mike
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Hey Mike ,
Do you still do that workshop in Spain? Somebodies always looking for some kind of jazz instruction on some of the Spanish boards I post on.
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Great band name! Sounds like a killer line up. Wish you guys were playing L.A. Originally Posted by mike walker
Can't wait to get the disc. Definitely keep us posted!
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Not this year, John. I'm touring. Originally Posted by JohnW400
Maybe next year tho.
M.
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Will do JP!! Originally Posted by Jazzpunk
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I'm a bit surprised that some of the posters here who I'd consider fairly advanced can listen to music without picking it apart in their mind.
I can't listen without analyzing. I can't have music on while working (mental work, not mindless housework) because it will always pull my attention from the work that I'm doing.
I've always wanted to know how things work. If Im in a furnature store I'll be the one crawling under the table to see how it's made. I learned electronics (and a new career) because I bought a synth and wanted to know more about how they worked and how they interface with compurters. When I listen to music and hear something that catches my attention I have to understand what it is and how I can apply the same thing to other songs. It's just the way I'm wired and figured it was a musician thing but I guess not.
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hey guys I'm the new guy here in this forum.. hope to learn more!
my favorite guitarist is Eric Johnson!
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Sometimes, the reasons given, are not the the actual reasons.
This can be painfully obvious to some.
However, grace dictates, we move on.Last edited by mike walker; 04-13-2011 at 09:46 AM.
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Haha, me too. It's subconscious analysis a lot of the time, or at least it's not me saying "I'm going to pick apart this song". But I'm always paying attention to the chord progression, scales/extensions/subs used, the skill level and style of each band member, etc. A lot of the time when I watch movies I miss significant scenes because I'm paying too much attention to the background music! Originally Posted by Gramps
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It's interesting how in some peoples' minds the anti-theory becomes its own theory. I jammed with a guitarist recently that had great chops. Played really cleanly and with excellent feel and articulation. However, he had no feel for form (i.e. AABA) or for outlining the chord changes. He was purposely avoiding learning anything formal about how chords work or how to outline chord changes. He felt that learning that would inhibit his ability to be creative and to sound earthy because in his mind, his teacher was "an academic" with no bluesyness to his playing. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I felt it was ironic that in being so steadfastly against theory he was actually subscribing to something even more rigid and constraining. I tried to explain to him that learning the theory actually gives you more not less freedom but he was convinced that theory was like a set of governing laws and regulations about what you could and couldn't do...
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I also can't listen without analyzing. My wife and I went to a jazz club a few weeks ago and there were two acts. Both absolutely horrible. Out of tune, bad time, and the backing band was just atrocious. However, she loved it. She thought the lyrics were good and really enjoyed "the show". I explained to her how painful it was to sit through it and she felt that it was sad that I couldn't just enjoy the singing.
When I hear music, it's like it's in slow motion. I hear notes that are out of tune, note that are not locked in, lines that are meandering and not over the chord changes, etc.
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That's sad. That's not what theory is at all---it's not a pledge of allegiance to always do X and never do Y. Originally Posted by jzucker
That said, it's important to realize that as valuable as theory is, it doesn't help much with some things, at least up front. Rhythm changes, for example--the chords are going by too fast to outline them in turn, and even if one did, it wouldn't be much of a solo. A lot of great jazz soloing is about using what Mickey Baker called "riff runs" that rub *against* the chord. (A lot of blues playing is the same way.) It's really better to learn some solos, transpose them into different keys, shuffle the notes around and see what still works and what doesn't. This way you gain a good feel for soloing and you something to work with. (A lot of theory is so general it's like advice for young writers that says "tell a story readers want to read", "make it interesting!", "add some conflict!"---true enough, but little help when you're bogged down in a story.)
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this is like learning the recipe for your favorite dish.
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From my experience, this kind of debate is endless, for a simple reason. Everybody IS different. "Analyzing" a song can be done in many different ways. It can be done by ear, which is a more "subconcious" way, it can be done by applying rules, theory, etc... Our set of tools is always unique, and comes from what we hear, what we read, our personnality, things we went through, what we worked on, what we learned, what we LIKE. The way we physically play is also a result of our personnal path. What works for some doesn't for other, also because we all don't even see music the same way! However, I think that the one common thing to all musicians is the strong desire to be able to express ourselves on our instrument, and that is what pushes us through the path we are taking.
In the end, I strongly believe that, even if you should be the only person on earth that likes what you are playing, if you are doing it honestly, its got a reason to be.
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Spam.
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If you are devinely gifted, you can play everything by heart. One of Lester Youngs life long friends and musician collegues one said that Lester knew absolutely nothing about harmony, but he had the most excellent ear. One could argue that he did in fact knew about harmony - he just found out by himself without knowing the official language for the phenomena.
For those of us who are less gifted, formal theory and analysis is a great help and often also a necessity.Last edited by oldane; 05-11-2011 at 02:40 PM.
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Yes, and I found out he views it in groups of Dominant or Tonic sounds. Originally Posted by Flyin' Brian
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Man, I was talking to a friend, 35 years ago we would climb cliffs in Chuck Taylors, (even shale, STUPID) and use broken tree branches to traverse some areas. I have a fear of heights but since you don't look down that was never a problem. I had two really close calls. Originally Posted by mike walker
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