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That is the beauty of jazz,there are so many choices!
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09-05-2010 06:22 AM
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Exactly. So many dovetailed sounds.
Originally Posted by milkmannnv
Modes are moods.
Don't believe the hype. Or any negativity toward a musical path.
The path is innocent. It's how you walk it, that really counts.
Grasshopper.
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... and I thought I was confused before!
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By the time you get to worrying about modes,you should have done enough time in the woodshead to know what sound you get when you fret a certain string at any fret.No matter which way you look at you only have 12 notes,it is up to you to play what you feel at a given moment in time,That is why great live solos never sound quite the same second time around, it all depends how you feel when you are playing.Do you use theory to play the solo or theory to analize the solo when its been played.Just my £0.02p worth.
Tom
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"I'll play it first and tell you what it is later. "
Miles Davis
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Good point! Originally Posted by milkmannnv
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Double confusion? That's a tough one. Originally Posted by RonD
... and I thought I was confused before!
Like, to be confused about the fact that you were confused or not.
'Was i confused, or not??'
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George Russell loved modes. Miles soaked up George's knowledge.
And we got his lovely album, 'Kind of Blue', which is, of course, a seminal album in Jazz.
Modes are lovely.
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Modal concepts (no value judgement about them are being presented here) are much easier to grasp if you explore them on a keyboard intrument: play a scale just on the white keys - if you start on C, it's Ionian; if you start on D it's Dorian; etc. Then you can relate the intervals involved to whatever major or minor scale you choose. Example: Mixolydian is a major scale with a b7.
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Don't worry about modes.
They are just colours.
Each mode has a formula.
The Formula for Lydian is #4.
So C lydian is a maj scale with the 4th note sharpened. Try it.
The formula for a Dominant scale (Mixolydian) is a b7
So Bb Mixolydian is a maj scale with the 7th flattened.
So what would a Lyd Dominant Scale be?
Yep, a Maj scale with a...... Try it.
Anyway, don't put this mode over that mode. Not yet.
Keep everything neat and tidy.
Whatever is the root of the chord, is the root of the Mode
So, not G dorian on Em7b5. E lochrian.
Not G Ionian on D7. D mixolydian.
Don't mix them up. Not for a long time.
Really listen to each sound, and absorb it.
In order to know the modes, your Maj scales should be solid. Without question.
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It's actually quite simple, G dorian,E locrian,and D aeolian all belong to the parent scale F ionian. Fmaj7, Gmin7, Amin7, Bbmaj7, C7, Dmin7,and Emin7b5. The chord progression is Emin7b5 A7 to any type of D minor chord,this is the relative minor of Gmin7 C7 and Fmaj.The only chord and scale not diatonic to this is A7 chord and the Bbmelodic scale also known as the A altered scale.You could play any of the modes of the F major scale over Emin7b5,A7,Dmin.Using a melodic minor a half step up from the dominant chord is an old trick.You could also use D harmonic minor over the A7.
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Thank you Mike Walker and Milkmannnv. After a long research possibly that was the last step I needed to understand the modes without thinking too much. You enlightened me. Yeah! So now for all the modes in say E I'll only have to think of the tonality in E which is E F# G# A B C# D# and if I wanna play its phrygian mode I'll only have to put a minor 2nd, minor 3rd, minor 6th and minor 7th which is E F G A B C D. Ups!!! It's C major starting on E!!!
Thank you again, buddies!
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Yep i get that. But what happens a lot is a beginning improviser tends to blur the colours. So everything sounds the same from tune to tune. Originally Posted by milkmannnv
Think of it this way. Without any chords beneath you, can you make the distinction from one sound to another in a progression like ....??
Gm7 / Em7b5 / A7#9 / Bbma7 /
Don't bag everything together. Delineate. (ofcourse bag it together if that makes ya happy!! )
Once you can do that, then you can get deeper by treating each sound as a colour you can add further spice to.
D harmonic min will move over the whole min II V I. But again treat the notes with care.
Again Altered is a mel min half step up, but it doen't make sense to always think one step removed. Just think of it as A alt, centered in its root.
I feel each root as home for each chord. I don't blur the lines.
This is a good analogy I think.....
All the things you are.... First 5 chords are in Ab maj. Cool.... so i can play just an Ab maj chord for the first 5 bars????
Nope.... that's nuts.
Well if it's nuts for the chords, it's nut's for the scales.
If i play All the Things... without chord backing or bass backing.... it sounds like All the things you are.
My 2 cents ofcourse.....Last edited by mike walker; 09-05-2010 at 02:31 PM.
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That's it fella. But think from the root of the mode, yes? Originally Posted by Claudi
Thank you Mike Walker and Milkmannnv. After a long research possibly that was the last step I needed to understand the modes without thinking too much. You enlightened me. Yeah! So now for all the modes in say E I'll only have to think of the tonality in E which is E F# G# A B C# D# and if I wanna play its phrygian mode I'll only have to put a minor 2nd, minor 3rd, minor 6th and minor 7th which is E F G A B C D. Ups!!! It's C major starting on E!!!
Thank you again, buddies!
Not from it's parent. This is the mistake a lot of people make and they end up giving it up when the sound is a little monotonous.
But you got it. Think of the Maj scale and add the Formula to that.
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Yes, sure! Originally Posted by mike walker
That's it fella. But think from the root of the mode, yes?
Not from it's parent.
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Seems to me that to many people here about modes,have a half hearted attempt at using them and give up.Using modes over a standard progression will not sound modal,why because of where the chords resovle.A 251/1625/25/minor 251 will always be key centred.A modal progression has a totally different feel.Check out the Chord voicings that Bill Evans uses on the Miles album the Mike Walker quoted above and I think you may get a better grasp.From what little I know modal jazz contains lots of sus chords to create space because of the lack of the third.Also forth chords.Which I hope some one with better knowledge than I might like to explain.Just my £0.02p.
Tom
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Hi, Oilywrag.
It's not that we want to focus each one's music on the modes. Not at all! It's simply that some of us want to understand what they are, how to find them and how to apply them. No doubt I want to master the chords as well as I do with the scales and modes. We talk about modes as a subject in music, as we could be discussing about the chords in a given scale or how to strum or hold the pick. They're all subjects in music.
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That's exactly it. Originally Posted by Claudi
The subjects, Modes, Scales, Arps, chords (I remember Joe Pass, who i loved,
saying that voicings, that needed you to stretch your fingers, were useless)
are never guilty in themselves. That's where you come in.
It has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the subject. Only with how you use or abuse the subject.
So always investigate such things for yourself.
If i believed Joe, i would have had to come up with some bullshit reason for not liking Ted Greene, who could stretch with the best of them.
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Hi Claudi, It wasn't meant to come accross like that,Guitarists of different genres all seem to want to talk about modes,no matter which website you go on the topic always comes up for disscusion.
I know my post was rather generalising,if you feel troubled by it then hey, I am sorry,but its just my opinion.If you want to check out this site you may like it.
www.modaljazz.com
Cheers Tom
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It didn't sound strange in any way Tom. Not in any way. Originally Posted by oilywrag
The Net, man. Love can sound like arrogance, warmth like indifference.
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Mike, modes are something that you never told me about all them years ago.
Cheers tom
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Fretboard logistics first, amigo.
So ya can see how those modes slot right in.
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Hey, Tom. I wasn't cross to anybody or any term at all. Pitty if I sounded crossed. Maybe it was the word I used SOME when saying that some of us want to learn them. I respect every guitarist, no matter if he's happy by simply strumming chords or playing any style s/he likes that I don't. I simply wanted to make you notice that the modes are a difficult thing to learn when someone has no idea but when investigating on them, as has been demonstrated in this thread, there are some ways to find them.
I'm also posting in this thread where you can check that I'm also interested in chords and I'm investigating them. Anyway, I find that knowing bako's scheme on every scale is important to be able to construct and improvise any chord and substitute them.
https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/getti...html#post95893
That's the thread.
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Do you know what I did after reading through all this ?
I enrolled at the JBGI !!!
Wish me luck
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Good luck fella!!!! Originally Posted by lasagne
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