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So, a while back I bought Mickey Baker's Complete Course in Jazz Guitar, Book 1 after hearing a lot of good things about it. When I first got it, I went through the first couple of lessons and felt like I learned a little, but as I got busy doing other gigs and didn't have time for any new technique, it kind of got put tot he side.
Now, I'm finally freeing up as the summer is coming to an end and I sat down tonight with the book again. It's basically kicking me, hard.
My biggest problem is that I learn by playing. Anything new I get (either theory or technique) I have to use to retain. New chords usually either get used within the first couple of weeks or I forget them completely. So, I'm lost when it comes to his Comping style. I don't recognize any of the chord progressions he is using as "standards" so when I am playing later I don't use the "new" versions. Maybe I'm just a lost cause on it, but I really want to learn this.
Any advice?
~DB
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08-12-2010 11:34 PM
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Good morning, lindydanny...
I'm no expert, but MB has been my staple diet for 40 years now (as an amateur...). I don't know what you normally play, but you might try a 'Real Book', there are several (legal...) ones to be found on Amazon, music shops, or the web. Play through some of the numbers in there (one of my favourites is 'Misty'...), and you'll soon recognise the chordal approach. You can then apply the MB chords and analysis in your playing.
I often think to myself that it's the first 40 years the most difficult, then it eases up a bit :-)
Keep at it; remember that MB repeats often that you should not rush through, but do some every day for as long as you can bear.
Good luck, and, as we" say in France, 'Bon courage'
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I thought that as well, when I first started with MB. As you move along the lessons, though, you'll get it. The first few lessons are hugely important for getting those changes under your fingers. It's vitally important as well to spend a week on each lesson. You might think as a competent guitarist in other styles that-no, I don't need to. Let me tell you-yes you do. I'm a good guitarist-I make a living at it, -but this is different. In the stuff I normally play, I play those chords in different ways, different fingerings etc. I have to put that to one side and learn as he is teaching. I had huge problems going from chord 2 to 3 at the start, but now it's easy-peasy-lemon-squeezy because I stuck at it.
Do NOT skip ANY lessons-there is no short cut. Do exactly what he says- 1 lesson-1 Week. What I do is do that, but also at the start of each day I quickly go through each previous lesson-as a reminder, and to add confidence and to stretch my fingers before the new lesson.
Lesson 17 is where it all starts to make sense. That is 17 weeks in. That's where you'll take 5 songs, from something like the real book or some sheet music, and apply these new changes to those songs. That was an eye opener to me. Up to lesson 23 it's all about chord work.
I've now started using his progressions all the time-they just seem to fit everything.
I'm not sure yet. as I'm up to week 19-but it seems to me that those first lessons (up to 23) are all about fitting into a band as a rhythm player-it's not about solos etc. It seems he's gently teaching me to walk before I can run. I used to be frustrated, as I play lead guitar in my covers band, but I'm now learning that this is exactly how I learned years back-learn the chords, the solos will follow.
Remember-there are no short cuts. As he says himself-if you skip through the lessons, not doing exactly what he says (with the transposing etc) you'll know very little more than when you started. He is NOT kidding.
My advice-start again-lesson 1, an hour at least a day-learn those chords for a week, and then on to lesson 2 next week, hour a day and so on.
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I've posted this before, but will try it again. Once upon a time I had a list that supposedly related MB's lessons to standard tunes. I used to have it on a computer, but I think it was one that died before I could save all the files. Anybody else know of this list, or am I imagining it?
Originally Posted by lindydanny
Brad
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I think my biggest problem is that when it comes to rhythm playing in folk rock, blue grass, and blues I can keep up pretty well. I can even solo out every so often. I read music at a low armature level (I read it to play along with a pit band for musicals). Also, unlike most guys my age, I have a pretty good working knowledge of jazz and jump swing.
So, I have all this rock style background that I'm trying to "forget" when I come at a book like this. Then, I'm trying to put the chords in my head into rhythms and jazz tunes that I already know. It is mind boggling frustrating.
My two biggest hurdles with this book right now are right hand attacks (not hitting strings I'm not supposed to) and not pulling a muscle in my hand trying to fret some of the "longer" chords. (Seriously, what the hell is with the D13b5b9? It doesn't even sound right!!!)
~DB
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Yep-I hear you. But you have to keep going-this is not easy. What lesson are you up to? And-and be honest here-are you doing it just like he said-1 week, 1 lesson, 1 hour a day? If you are not, you're just not going to get it using Mickey's method. See-Folk, Rock, Country-it's a different style of playing, different chord sounds, different rhythms.
See-you are not even supposed to be getting on to songs till you really have the basic chords chuck chuck down.
To give you an idea of what he's trying to get into your head--do you know the song Mack the Knife?
You know the intro written in the sheet music is just 4 bars of Bb- the chord Bb. 1,2,3,4, 1,2,3,4 etc
Now try it with Micky's easiest way- for each bar hit 2 beats of Bbmaj7, 2 beats Bbmaj6, . See how much more jazzy that sounds? Or for the 2 bars-Bb, Bb, Bbmaj7, Bbmaj7, Bbmaj6, Bbmaj6, Bbmaj7, Bbmaj7.
See? It's substituting fuller, more rich chords than the written chords. Jazzing it up. Instead of a boring cowboy style of a couple of bars playing the same major chord, he wants you to use different chords that hint at the sound of the original.
About the not-hitting the strings? That's why it's so important to really study and practicing the fingerings he suggests. You can hit the other strings, but if you are doing it right the sides of your fingers will be muting the strings that are not supposed to sound. That's precisely why he wants you to go slow and practice the basic stuff first, before learning songs.
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I've pushed on to lesson 4 and did a little bit of lesson 6 one night just to make sure I was thoroughly confused. But, I am going to start heading everyone's advice and approach it at the 1 a week lesson schedule.
To start, I'm sitting here at my day job (one with lots of boring down time) and going through lesson one on paper. For the life of me, the D13b5b9 still baffles me. It shouldn't make sense. I can finger it and make all of the notes sound out and I get the sound, but it still just baffles me. It probably will be my WTF chord for a while.
Billkath, what you say about comparing jazzy to cowboy chords actually makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the illustration.
~DB
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Chords often don't make sense on their own, in this method for the early lessons. However-once you start using that chord in conjunction with another chord-then it becomes clear. See that D13b5b9? And the finguring for the chord Gmaj7 that follows that? It's somewhat the same shape-you're just dropping the bottom three strings down a half-step, leaving the top strings anchored. Now-later on you'll start doing progressions that use that chord in combination with other chords. You'll play the cowboy chords first, at a tempo, then play HIS progression at the same tempo and hear that it sounds the same, but MUCH more jazzy. That hard change down on the 2nd or 4th fret is a stretch at first, but it's much easier at the 8th fret, which is where you'll often use it.
As you move through the lessons you'll start hearing the progressions (like subbing the minor and minor 6th from the relative dominant 7th), and you'll get a lightbulb moment when you see that he's really making life easy to play quick changes, with the fingers staying around the same position.
He threw those hard fingurings in to stretch you-it gets MUCH easier once you start putting the full week at an hour a day on each lesson.
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After thinking about it at lunch, the chord makes more sense if I remember what I've read in the past. It was basically something on how rhythm guitar has to get out of the way of other instruments sometimes including the bass. So, you don't always play the bass or root note of a chord because it doubles up with the bass line.
I guess that would work even double on things like 5ths and 7ths and not playing them because I need to be out of the way of lead instruments like horns.
~DB
P.S.: I need an easy button!
P.P.S.: Not really. I just wanted to bitch.
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Yep-totally true. See-the first bit of the book is about creating interesting backing for solo instruments.
Another hint--Get a razor blade and cut the first page out of the book.
Get one of those polythene pocket pouches and put the page in it, and sellotape the edge of the pocket to the edge of the cover, so that it can fold over and out. That way, no matter which page you are on, you'll always be able to see the chord associated with a number to reference them (like when it says chord 12 for instance).
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Good evening, lindydanny...
billkath has said it all. It's not a 'Play in a Day' method at all, but several years of quality information. Your previous playing will help a lot, but also hinder you if you don't do as the book says.
As for the D13: just play D7, resolving to G. Now (slowly, note by note...) play the D13 as in the book (never mind having them all 'down' at once for now...), then follow with the G. It resolves..! Same again, but follow the D13 with GMaj7 (then the G if you want...). You'll hear the effect. I don't always use all the notes in the chords anyway, when 'noodling', so practice slowly and carefully, then relax some and play them a bit more 'sloppy', just to here how the general sound is created.
Incidently, I use a 'fluo' marker to carefully fill in the 5th fret for lesson 1 diagrams; that helps me see them applied to the fretboard (I did this for all the diagrams in the book...).
You are not the first, or last, to take on this book; hundreds of top (and lesser...) guitarists have gone through this.
It's the first 40 years the most difficult, after which it eases up some :-)
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Don't forget your rock stuff, just combine the two... like Robben Ford: In this video Robben Ford mentions that he learned chords from the Mickey Backer book and used those chords in a blues context: Originally Posted by lindydanny
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Have had the same thing, not with the baker book but I see where you're at.. Just keep on pushing, stick to it!!!! I made a full transition from rock to jazz but I did not stop to ask myself if it was the right thing to do, or if I was making it to hard for myself. You should consider doing the same thing en just, don't think, just... play man. It'll work itself out!! And not only if it's supposed to.. it will do so anyway if you persist
Hope that gave you at least some mental stuff to think (or NOT think :P) about.
Cheers!
P.S. Ofcourse I'm not suggesting to not look back at rock, that was my personal choice, I'm still able to play it however, just don't do it too often
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Now that I'm done with the summer schedule and I'm free most nights, I'm trying to get an hour of practice in every night. I know that you guys suggest an hour each lesson, but with my time constraints and the long list of things I need/want to learn, I'm probably only getting 20 to 30 minutes in. I'm spending a lot of the rest of that time working on scales and songs for gigs.
Any thoughts?
~DB
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Your improvement in jazz is going to be directly proportional to the amount of time you put into it. If you want to be able to do it quick, get up an hour earlier in the morning, or go to bed an hour later or make time in your breaks to practice, or cut back on something else you love doing-like watching TV or going for a pint with your mates. Of course, if you're in no hurry, 30 minutes is fine.
The hour a day, 7 days a week is just a guideline. My way of thinking is that you do it till you can do it easily . That includes the writing out and transposing ones-you don't need to spend a week on that-it might take you a few minutes or an hour. Of course-you have to be honest with yourself, and NOT move on to the next lesson until you can really do what is being asked of you.
I can tell you that I often sit in front of the TV after gigging, going through some of those lessons and breaking only occasionally to yell at Bill O'Reilly (it doesn't start till 1 AM over here) or one of his guests!
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I think that is my next step, actually: Sitting around while doing other things like watching TV or just waiting while fingering through the chord changes. Especially the last line on Lesson 2. I like that little walk down it does, but I'm still having trouble with getting my fingers to listen to my brain.
Last night, after doing a ton of work around the house that included about an hour in my woodshop, I stayed up after my wife went to bed and beat the strings for about an hour. It felt good to get it done along with the rest of my day. Now if I can just keep up the work.
~DB
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Mickey Baker
Dont know if anyone has seen this site but I guess someone at the Texas Fingerstyle Association took MB's Book 1 and annotated it and added the lessons in TableEdit formot so you can play them..I use GuitarPro and they work fine...
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Good Man. Believe me-those changes get easier and easier the more you do them. Who cares if it takes a month to get the G ones right, and another to get the C ones right-by two months you'll be wondering why you found it difficult. Just running through them in front of the TV-unwinding-is my idea of heaven. Originally Posted by lindydanny
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Funny... (allow me to vent)
I just said a similar thing to my wife not five minutes before reading this post.
She is very progressive to say the least.
Her response was that the solution to everything is the TV.
I hate it when she pulls all the wind out of my sails on something like that. Here I am trying to better myself by learning something new and she changes the subject and makes it a spring board for her bullshit.
[/rant][/vent]
~DB
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Ah, Women--Can't live with them, Can't hit them over the head with a lump hammer
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You can, you just get in trouble. And make sure you get her with the first shot! My wife has two frying pans hung on the wall like shot guns!
~DB
P.S.: Bass2man, thanks for that link. That is a world of helpful information on this book. I'm intend on using that as a constant resource!
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I moved onto lesson 3 Sunday evening. I just started at the top and played through each twice to get the first feeling under my fingers. Other than the understandable clunk I get from me still figuring out the feel on the fret board and (more to blame) my attack with the right hand for strumming, I don't think it sounded too bad. Once more through it all and I was done for the night.
Yesterday, during a down hour at work, I went to Michael Joyce's Mickey Baker site and read through and downloaded the lesson supplement for Lesson 3. (Thanks again, Bass2man.)
When I got home I plugged it into my laptop and played the tracks for each exercise. I can't explain enough how much this helped. It wasn't as much the hearing of both parts as it was the new part. Especially the 13b5b9's that are everywhere. Suddenly, the sound I was strumming for on those chords made sense.
Back to the guitar. I played through the exercises again, this time taking my time and playing it more as a slow, light jazz attack/rhythm. The "tunes" sounded much better. Then back up to the more rhythmic style I had been using and again: better.
The key for me is that D13b5b9 shape (number 6 in the book). I had it in my head that it was supposed to be a regular V (five) chord. It's not. It is supposed to be a transitional or lead in chord to the next phrase or part. Treating/thinking the chord this way, my right hand naturally strummed the chord more correctly. With a little practice, this will start to come along.
Tonight, I'm focusing the first bit of time in the book running through Lesson 2 again before moving on to Lesson 3. Mostly, because I want to think the chords right again there before I move forward. After a week on this, I'll move ahead to Lesson 4.
~DB
P.S.: I also spend time on scales and notes during practice time. Usually, I pick the next note on the circle of fifths from the one I did yesterday and focus on finding all of them on the fretboard, playing as many scales as I can remember, and making as many chord shapes as I can. Then, I pick a song (seemingly random, but I have my favorites) and try to play it in the key of that note. All in all, it takes me over an hour, but I don't do it all in one sitting. Usually while I do house work or cooking.
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Fantastic-I love it when it starts to make sense. I can assure you that in a few weeks or so you'll find yourself naturally dropping those chord ideas into other songs that you'll play, and changing the chords in the Real Books.
Well done!!
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I'm going through MB and becoming a much better play, becauses of and independent of, the MB book. But I've come to the conclusion that a keyboard is essential, as you come to understand some theory. I was with you on the D13b5b7, essentially that is a chord with EVERY possible tension. It will make returning to the I sound the most complete. BUT if you can finger it on the keyboard, and put the bass note in, it will all make sense to you. The voicing in the MB book doesn't include the bass note. So it can sound a bit 'watery' 'out of place.' Originally Posted by lindydanny
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Update on my status:
I'm working well through the first few lesson. I still get a little caught on the D13b5b9 chord, but it is coming and my ear is getting used to it. I've come to realize just how much I didn't know about jazz guitar before I started.
I had started at one point working through "Swing and Big Band Guitar" by Charlton Johnson (this is the Freddie Green Style from Hal Leonard). I noticed in the massive amount of words that are in that book I highlighted a lot of stuff about the theory behind playing rhythm guitar. As much as I would like to work through some of that book again, I'm afraid working on that technique would be contrary to what I'm working my hands on with Mickey's method. Any thoughts?
~DB
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