I just ordered all the Real Books lol

[Bobby Timmons]

It's high time you were up in this debate.

My stance is that if I tried to learn everything by ear, that would mean either I would be playing everything wrong, way more wrong than learning it from a book; or it would take me a damn year to learn a single tune accurately. Not sure how that would end up being viable. So I just get on with playing tunes from books. Although I am all for being as aurally accurate or advanced as you can be. I always do some ear work and tinkering with tune parts or whole tunes. Have been since I started piano in about 05.

[Christian Miller]

There’s honour in making your own mistakes though.


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[Christian Miller]

Tbf, the Bud Powell reading is better than almost all music

Rachmaninov meets Tatum meets Debussy. Not bad.


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[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I've always grabbed every fakebook that came my way and recommend that anyone who plays out so the same. They have their flaws, some of which are glaring enough to stop a band in the middle of a tune. But the right fakebook can save your buns every once in a while. I've been amazed at the tunes that are not in any of the Real Books or other commonly used substitutes, and a few books have surprised me by having tunes that don't even belong in them based on the name of the book.

I've saved every one I could get as a pdf, and I access them from my tablet or phone if I need to know something I either never learned or can't remember while sitting on the stand in the middle of a gig. I kow a lot of tunes. But after so many years of playing and so much time since I was last asked to play many of them, parts like intros and bridges can get a little blurry. Here's what I have so far:



Most of these are available for download from one internet repository or another. Some are free and some are not. But even among these 60, there are tunes that cannot be found. So I continue to add to my collection.

[pauln]

i like both very much. You could write them
A/Bb (aka ‘the nasty chord’)
or
A/F (aka ‘the girlfriend chord’)

So, BbmM7/F is the nasty girlfriend chord?

[Christian Miller]

So, BbmM7/F is the nasty girlfriend chord?

I couldn’t possibly comment


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[ragman1]

My stance is that if I tried to learn everything by ear, that would mean either I would be playing everything wrong, way more wrong than learning it from a book; or it would take me a damn year to learn a single tune accurately. Not sure how that would end up being viable. So I just get on with playing tunes from books. Although I am all for being as aurally accurate or advanced as you can be. I always do some ear work and tinkering with tune parts or whole tunes. Have been since I started piano in about 05.

I meant the debate about the first chord of Stella. As you can see, it carries on for lots more posts. It may be an eggheads delight but we should all know about it... so we can see it coming, presumably :-)

[Bobby Timmons]

I'm not dogmatic about always playing accurate to the recordings. So I happily play the Real Book changes to most tunes. Although I do try to consistently do ear work on the recordings and pick up licks and more accurate ways of playing the tunes to work towards improving myself.

[ragman1]

I'm not dogmatic about always playing accurate to the recordings. So I happily play the Real Book changes to most tunes. Although I do try to consistently do ear work on the recordings and pick up licks and more accurate ways of playing the tunes to work towards improving myself.

Me too, generally speaking, but not always. That thread about the Footprints bridge is a good case in point. It was obviously far easier to play the RB's D7-Db7 version but the other more 'authentic' one kept nagging at me till I had to try it out.

In the case of Stella I've always been perfectly happy with Em7b5-A7b9. The other one seems to be an unnecessary complication.

[AllanAllen]

Me too, generally speaking, but not always. That thread about the Footprints bridge is a good case in point. It was obviously far easier to play the RB's D7-Db7 version but the other more 'authentic' one kept nagging at me till I had to try it out.

In the case of Stella I've always been perfectly happy with Em7b5-A7b9. The other one seems to be an unnecessary complication.

It has been my experience that being aware of other changes just complicates starting the song when you try discussing the variants with the band only to end up finding out you have all learned the Miles Davis changes of Well You Needn't from different recordings.

[Reg]

It's typically more important that the musicians playing the tune... are aware and can hear whatever version of any tune your playing. (or read the arrangement thrown in front of them).

Most of the time audiences don't notice, depending on venue LOL.

When you make an analysis of tunes.... you decide on Targets... Tonal Targets that imply melodically and harmonically how your performing the Tune... your choices to expand the harmony or melody will have References from which you create new harmonic / melodic relationships... and develop them.

Personally I like playing different arrangements of tunes... It's more fun to have different options of playing tunes... not know what your actually going to play etc...

I'm also a fake book sucker, I like to support....

[AllanAllen]

It's typically more important that the musicians playing the tune... are aware and can hear whatever version of any tune your playing.

When you do this, is the first chorus just a mess where everyone is trying to feel out the arrangement? I played with a few piano players and when we did different things it was just a clam, not a hip re-harmonization.

[lawson-stone]

Oh - this bad boy

I like how even the cover tells you off

Attachment 111281

‘Every musician SHOULD know’. Don’t know them? You aren’t EVEN a musician.

Absolute goldmine of a book. The original changes to I Got Rhythm lol.

Attachment 111282

It was the former owner who made the pencil ‘corrections’. I wouldn’t dare.

EDIT; can anyone remind me how to make these not sideways?

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For some reason the photo orientation tags used by the iPhone camera don't get read by the forum software. So what I do is use the photo editing software to turn the picture, then re-save it, and then they upload correctly. I do most posting from my laptop actually, and I usually do the turn-and-resave thing on the laptop with Preview. But without fail, if I upload directly from the iPhone to the forum, the picture is sideways. Turning and re-saving seems to reset that tag somehow.

[mr. beaumont]

When you do this, is the first chorus just a mess where everyone is trying to feel out the arrangement? I played with a few piano players and when we did different things it was just a clam, not a hip re-harmonization.

Usually better to just let the piano lead. They're going to anyway And then just target I and V with your comping, those will stay in the same place.

[pamosmusic]

When you do this, is the first chorus just a mess where everyone is trying to feel out the arrangement? I played with a few piano players and when we did different things it was just a clam, not a hip re-harmonization.

super depends on the alternative changes you're working with.

The vast majority are functionally the same ... Piano player plays G-7b5 and C7 in the second bar of It Could Happen toYou, the guitar player plays an E diminished 7 and the soloist plays over C altered or something. There would be tiny clashes if you slowed it down and were a weirdo about it, but everything functionally works together and jazz gives us pretty wide latitude for clashes on extensions and stuff.

Then there are others ... you've mentioned Grant Green's Oleo a few times. That's an example of a real reharmonization where if one person is playing that and the others aren't, it's going to be weird.

There are definitely some alternate changes out there that would fall in between those and result in some minor difficulty, but most of them I think fall pretty cleanly into the "You Do You" or the "Obviously Different" camps.

I think a good thing to think about is the way we embellish chords. Like side-slipping is super common but part of the point is that not everyone is doing it at the same time and in the same way. That sort of push and pull of tension and resolution in different parts of the band at different times, but all heading in the same direction, is what makes the whole thing sound cool.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Most of the time audiences don't notice, depending on venue LOL.

Buddy RIch wouldn't sit in with a band whose playing he didn't know, and he wouldn't let anyone whose playing he didn't know sit in with his band. He said that when something's not right, the audience doesn't know or care which player is responsible for it. They just know that something's off, and they blame the whole band.

You never know who's listening to you - some very surprising people turn up in audiences around the world. Every exposure is both a potential opportunity and a potential risk. We begin my jazz trio's Thursday night shows with an hour set before opening the stage to performers from the audience to sit in. A very nice woman we'd never seen before came up to sing a tune one night last year, and she was outstanding. So we asked her to do 2 more, and she was even more outstanding. I talked to her for a while afterwards, and she turned out to be Harmony Bartz - Gary's daughter! She's a consummate pro and a pleasure to accompany. There've been many top pros hiding in audiences over the years. Some come up after a set or show to introduce themselves and talk, but more often than not they're with their friends or family out for a nice evening, and I only learn that they were there days to weeks later if at all.

So even at jams, I find it best to at least discuss which version of a tune the others are going to use. Are solos in nonconforming blues tunes played over the tune's changes or over 12 bar blues changes? Even little things like whether or not to play the extra bars between verses and during solos in Watch What Happens or The Chicken need to be known by all. No matter how well you listen and how carefully you try to anticipate what piano, bass, and soloists are going to do, there's either an awkward pause when everybody waits to see where the tune's going or a cacophonous clash when everybody plays his or her own thing.

If everyone's using a different fake book for the same tune,

[pamosmusic]

If everyone's using a different fake book for the same tune,

So this is the problem with fake books, right?

there is NOTHING inherently wrong with them. But when you’re playing from a book you’ll be inclined (not guaranteed, but inclined) to play with your eyes and not your ears.

[pan60]

i had some fake books but i cant seem to locate them i was thinking about getting a oder together
is there one book to rule them all?

[tbeltrans]

At the risk of being on topic, this sounds useful, I know zilch about Linux though.

GitHub - veltzer/openbook: OpenBook is an open source Jazz real book

Thanks! Since I run Linux on my laptop instead of Windows, I pulled the repository and built the book. There are new tunes from that pull that aren't yet in the fully built version, so it is worthwhile to pull the repository. If you run Ubuntu, the instructions on the github site are correct, but since I run Fedora, I had to do it the "Fedora" way, which is a bit different. But that is part of the charm of Linux - you figure stuff out and there is usually a reward at the end. In this case, the reward is the complete up to date book. I already had most of the required environment since this isn't the only project I have dabbled with. I enjoy chess NNs too, and prefer to build and tinker rather than download a ready-made version.

Tony

[AllanAllen]

I can't stand linuix, something goes wrong and I'm just copy and pasting code from forums without understanding what I'm doing. My college laptop won't run windows anymore

[Reg]

When you do this, is the first chorus just a mess where everyone is trying to feel out the arrangement? I played with a few piano players and when we did different things it was just a clam, not a hip re-harmonization.

No... I've been gigging for decades... have hosted several jazz jams for years...... know most of the rhythm section players locally... and can easily verbally explain which versions or if we decide to make quick head arrangement... again verbally explain.

All tunes are just organized sections of space. It's easy to make changes, add intros, outros, interludes, vamps etc... I'm use to directing bands.... relaxed and can cue well before etc... don't need to figure out what's going on with most tunes, just decide on style and approach or arrangement etc...

I guess the other thing is I got my technical skills together ... a long time ago. Playing jazz isn't complicated , its fun etc...

I still suck... but I play in time and with really good feels.... Players trust me... (even pianist LOL).


The claim thing tends to be more of a rhythmic thing..

[Reg]

Buddy RIch wouldn't sit in with a band whose playing he didn't know, and he wouldn't let anyone whose playing he didn't know sit in with his band. He said that when something's not right, the audience doesn't know or care which player is responsible for it. They just know that something's off, and they blame the whole band.

You never know who's listening to you - some very surprising people turn up in audiences around the world. Every exposure is both a potential opportunity and a potential risk. We begin my jazz trio's Thursday night shows with an hour set before opening the stage to performers from the audience to sit in. A very nice woman we'd never seen before came up to sing a tune one night last year, and she was outstanding. So we asked her to do 2 more, and she was even more outstanding. I talked to her for a while afterwards, and she turned out to be Harmony Bartz - Gary's daughter! She's a consummate pro and a pleasure to accompany. There've been many top pros hiding in audiences over the years. Some come up after a set or show to introduce themselves and talk, but more often than not they're with their friends or family out for a nice evening, and I only learn that they were there days to weeks later if at all.

So even at jams, I find it best to at least discuss which version of a tune the others are going to use. Are solos in nonconforming blues tunes played over the tune's changes or over 12 bar blues changes? Even little things like whether or not to play the extra bars between verses and during solos in Watch What Happens or The Chicken need to be known by all. No matter how well you listen and how carefully you try to anticipate what piano, bass, and soloists are going to do, there's either an awkward pause when everybody waits to see where the tune's going or a cacophonous clash when everybody plays his or her own thing.

If everyone's using a different fake book for the same tune,

yea... but we're pros... right... we just don't Fuc# up ... and when we do ... it's sill good.

But yes ... I've worked with, and still do with some really great rhythm sections.... someone is directing. I'm always more than happy to follow and backup who ever takes the lead... that's our job LOL.

[tbeltrans]

I can't stand linuix, something goes wrong and I'm just copy and pasting code from forums without understanding what I'm doing. My college laptop won't run windows anymore

Linux definitely isn't for everybody. I have worked with Linux since version 0.99 when we got it on a pile of about 30 5 1/4" floppies. I ended up porting Linux to various embedded platforms, writing drivers, even writing some code that went into the kernel. I had a very good career with that as a software engineer working at and near the hardware.

I don't recommend Linux to people because most folks really would be more as you describe and I would be stuck spending all my time supporting them as they try to make use of the system. The various GUI desktops have greatly improved, but you still need to know what you are doing. To me, those who find their own way to Linux and are able to get their heads around it, are the most successful at making that switch. Everybody else would fare much better with either Windows or a Mac type platform, though I seem to spend a fair amount of time helping neighbors in my condo building with issues even in those environments. So I am not convinced that the standard Windows/Mac environments are any better in that regard. What is better with the standard Windows/Mac environments is that it is easier to find people who know and can work in them. I really don't think people who buy personal computers realize that they need to either be their own IT department, find a friend they can glom onto for support, or pay for such support from outfits such as Geek Squad.

Tony

[ragman1]

EDIT; can anyone remind me how to make these not sideways?

I missed this. Ever helpful, here we go. This is one of those things that takes a lot of waffle to describe but, once you've got it, it's very quick and simple.


Get your picture, open it in Paint.

The current size is shown at the bottom under the picture. Your 'I Got Rhythm' one is 3000 x 2250 which is huge, as you can see.

First use the Rotate button (top left) to rotate it 'right 90o'. You'll see the size has changed to 2250 x 3000.

Then there's a Resize button above the Rotate one.

A good size for pictures on the forum is about a height of about 600. If you open Resize there are two figures of 100 in two boxes. You only need to alter the 100 figure, you don't need to touch or alter anything else.

Now you need to reduce the size from 2250 to about 600. 600 is a good size for the forum.

The 100 is a percentage so 100% means the whole picture size as it is now.

You have to work it out a little. If you change the 100 to 50 (i.e. half) that'll make the size 1125 x 1500. if you change it from 100 to 25 it'll make it 563 x 750. That's near enough.

So write in 25 instead of 100. Both boxes will then show 25. Click OK and the size will reduce to 563 x 750 (see below).

(You can adjust it further by fiddling with it. Always start from 100. Changing 100 to 20, for instance, gives the size as 450 x 600, and so on).

Save the new picture out from the File menu as a jpeg. Then post it into the thread.

Short version:

Rotate
Resize
Save.

This is 563 x 750.

[Christian Miller]

I missed this. Ever helpful, here we go. This is one of those things that takes a lot of waffle to describe but, once you've got it, it's very quick and simple.


Get your picture, open it in Paint.

The current size is shown at the bottom under the picture. Your 'I Got Rhythm' one is 3000 x 2250 which is huge, as you can see.

First use the Rotate button (top left) to rotate it 'right 90o'. You'll see the size has changed to 2250 x 3000.

Then there's a Resize button above the Rotate one.

A good size for pictures on the forum is about a height of about 600. If you open Resize there are two figures of 100 in two boxes. You only need to alter the 100 figure, you don't need to touch or alter anything else.

Now you need to reduce the size from 2250 to about 600. 600 is a good size for the forum.

The 100 is a percentage so 100% means the whole picture size as it is now.

You have to work it out a little. If you change the 100 to 50 (i.e. half) that'll make the size 1125 x 1500. if you change it from 100 to 25 it'll make it 563 x 750. That's near enough.

So write in 25 instead of 100. Both boxes will then show 25. Click OK and the size will reduce to 563 x 750 (see below).

(You can adjust it further by fiddling with it. Always start from 100. Changing 100 to 20, for instance, gives the size as 450 x 600, and so on).

Save the new picture out from the File menu as a jpeg. Then post it into the thread.

Short version:

Rotate
Resize
Save.

This is 563 x 750.

Urgh I’m not doing that


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