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Call me unacceptable and irresponsible - I like BbM7#11 (tonic lydian chord).
Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Colorado Cook Book has an Em7 in the first bar.
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05-02-2024 11:18 AM
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The original changes are so fucking cool.
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Well I rather think of that as vanilla. Sure, it’ll work, but why not have Bbmaj7#11#9 instead? Originally Posted by Mick-7
Or for that matter a Bbo7(maj7) - oh wait….
You could even sub in Fmaj7#5
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I like it when it goes Bm Em7b5/Bb D/A the best Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I also like that it goes Gm6 Dm with no A7
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It's like all downward chromatic bass movement. Super dramatic. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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It’s flipping Rachmaninov or sumfink Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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The second inversion m7b5 or first inversion m6 is hugely underrated.
I like the original Fmaj7 Am7b5/Eb D7(#11) D7 sooo much more than Fmaj7 Eb7#11 Am7 D7 in Days of Wine and Roses. No contest
It’s a Robert Schumann vibe apparently, but I always here How Deep is Your Love or Life on Mars. Very romantic chord.
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I will add that I do have a couple of other books that have been very helpful for me:
- Robert Conti "Assembly Line" and "The Formula" along with some of the chord melody arrangements that clearly illustrate his approach in tunes.
- The two chord melody books by Mike Elliot and the follow-on two by Len Braunling applying the techniques to pop tunes (These have the same basic ideas that Conti greatly expands on with a bunch of tunes showing how these ideas work). So really, these and Conti all point in the same direction. These are long out of print and I never hear people mention the second two books. To me, those second books are just as important because the Mike Elliot books apply the few pages of instruction to standards, while the second two apply the same instruction to modern pop tunes of that time, giving a much broader range of application.
- The Jeff Arnold series of fingerstyle styling to chord melody arrangements
- Robert Yelin series of chord melody arrangement books
- The two Mel Bay Barry Galbraith volumes of chord melody arrangements
The latter three series listed are good starting points for ideas rather than what I would want to memorize. They are not method books (i.e. no instruction). To me, the fun is in working up tunes my own way using what I have learned rather than learning somebody else's arrangement and always playing it that way. Admittedly, I simply don't have the patience or a good enough memory to do that anyway. But you can learn a lot from playing through the Barry Galbraith arrangements carefully.
...and then, the Real Books where we apply all that we have learned to tune after tune after tune. For me, the fun is just opening one of these at random and playing that tune as a chord melody on the spot rather than trudging through writing down an arrangement and painstakingly working it out (i.e. suffering for your art). It is just like learning a language. When you have developed and learned to use a vocabulary, you can begin to converse in real time.
Tony
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Oh how could I forget All By Myself - the greatest verse in popular music stolen directly from the Rach-meister. It sees DOWR and Mars and raises it a major minor modal interchange on an F pedal.
F Bbm/F F Am7b5/Eb Dsus4 D7 Gm
There ought to be a law against it. I feel dirty.
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The best advice I got for learning from recordings that use multiple instruments was to listen to the bass line. Youtube seems to have nearly everything and it is easy enough to download an MP3 since that is the audio portion of a youtube video and then pick apart the tune to get an idea of the chords being used. Of course, we also have our own favorite subs and "grips" (Joe Pass used that term and it seems to fit nicely, so I stole it). Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
My wife likes to work out Sudoku puzzles to keep her brain functioning. I tend to play chess against my Millennium Phoenix chess computer and play chord melody.
Tony
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Real books are fine, the burn your real book crowd is just parroting guys from 50 years ago when every bridge either went IV iv ii V(Ellington), iii VI ii V(Rhythm Changes), or Honeysuckle Rose.
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The case against is that it’s not how the music was really learned or played. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
I don’t have anything against fake books at all and most normal people only have but so much bandwidth for learning by ear.
I think it’s just that jazz is informal and aural so having everything be based off a book is kind of weird. That manifests more in a pet peeve about people playing from the book though. Learning from them doesn’t really seem like a huge deal
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I like the idea of learning jazz being more like learning Allman Brothers when I was in a high school jam band than like learning Villa Lobos when I was in college
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It's high time you were up in this debate. Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
'Bud Powell and Barry Harris played Bb dim7. But most jazz artists since the time of Miles Davis play the Eø A7b9, including Bill Evans and Keith Jarrett. So, I am not with Barry Harris to insist that it is wrong'
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AFIAK the only jazz musicians Barry had unqualified admiration for were Bud and Bird (Bird recorded with the original changes on With Strings.) So that tracks. To him what Jarrett and or Evans were doing would have been utterly irrelevant to him. Originally Posted by ragman1
Students taking Barry’s word as gospel should bear that in mind. Not everyone who learns from Barry is a die hard bopper.
However… the Em7b5/C#m7b5 reharm definitely predates the Miles recording. Jim Hall plays more or less the RB changes in G on his first record for in at once.
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He sure does. I didn’t know there was a controversy about that first chord until I saw some Mike Moreno video a few years ago. I learned it from the real book when I was 17 or something and then the Jim Hall solo was one of the first things I really sat down and transcribed and the changes were the same. Without looking at it, I think maybe there’s Bbm6 instead of Bbm7-Eb7 to the Fmaj, but I don’t really remember anymore. It’s pretty much the same so it never really occurred to me that those changes were improper or whatever Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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?? - I can't think of a way to voice a chord with three semitones in it on the guitar (A/Bb, E/F, C#/D) Originally Posted by Christian Miller
P.S. - Probably the only possibility: 1-0-0-3-2-0
What a lovely way to begin a tune!
The FM7#5 seems a little too dissonant to start out a tune.
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Oh - this bad boy
I like how even the cover tells you off
‘Every musician SHOULD know’. Don’t know them? You aren’t EVEN a musician.
Absolute goldmine of a book. The original changes to I Got Rhythm lol.
It was the former owner who made the pencil ‘corrections’. I wouldn’t dare.
EDIT; can anyone remind me how to make these not sideways?
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The joke is that if you could play most of a Bbmaj7#11#9, then it would look an awful lot like Bbo(maj7) Originally Posted by Mick-7
All the alternate changes are coming from the same place.
caveat … I could be wrong … I don’t always get Christian’s jokes.
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At the risk of being on topic, this sounds useful, I know zilch about Linux though.
GitHub - veltzer/openbook: OpenBook is an open source Jazz real book
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I mean at the time they said it was too dissonant to start a tune with Originally Posted by Mick-7
9 x 8 7 9 x
but that’s what young wrote. which was unsual at the time.
so
6 x 7 6 5 5
or
x 8 11 9 10 x
They are polychords with an A triad against a funny bass note. Both sound modern without losing the sense of the original to my ears.
i like both very much. You could write them
A/Bb (aka ‘the nasty chord’)
or
A/F (aka ‘the girlfriend chord’)
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Thank you Christian. Fact is, it's not a chord I've tried to incorporate into my playing, just behind the times I guess....
"EDIT; can anyone remind me how to make these not sideways?"
You can rotate it with any image software, e.g., Photos or Paint in Windows.
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I was half joking? But I like the sounds. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
But to me what makes it sound like you’ve done a modern is when you have a derpy derp major triad in the upper structure of a chord as opposed to something like an augmented or in the case of Stella a dissonant structure. Well when I say modern, I mean modern for like 1972. But anyway.
So in this sense Bbmaj7#9#11 (spelling?) is both like a Bbo(maj7) and also kind of different. Chord symbols are limited anyway. I’d write A/Bb, A/Bbmaj7 if I was feeling frisky.
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But play the A Bb triad pair over the first chord (doesn’t matter which one). It’s niiiiiice
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It’s a more unusual sound. For straightahead gigs I lean into the D harmonic minor tonality, or as Barry would have it C7 to the third of A7 (root of C#o7) which is how Bird handled it, but if you want to go a little more post modal on this tune: Originally Posted by Mick-7
Bbmaj7#9#11 suggests Bb lydian #9 (mode VI of D harmonic minor)
Bbo(maj7) suggests that or Bb diminished
Fmaj7#5 suggests F lydian augmented or mode iii of D melodic minor
Still D minor - ish but more modal
I tried that obv. It’s like, ‘nope sideways for you!’"EDIT; can anyone remind me how to make these not sideways?"
You can rotate it with any image software, e.g., Photos or Paint in Windows.
There is a way to do it.
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