The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    The acceptable answers are....
    Call me unacceptable and irresponsible - I like BbM7#11 (tonic lydian chord).

    Colorado Cook Book has an Em7 in the first bar.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    The original changes are so fucking cool.


  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick-7
    Call me unacceptable and irresponsible - I like BbM7#11 (tonic lydian chord).

    Colorado Cook Book has an Em7 in the first bar.
    Well I rather think of that as vanilla. Sure, it’ll work, but why not have Bbmaj7#11#9 instead?

    Or for that matter a Bbo7(maj7) - oh wait….

    You could even sub in Fmaj7#5

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  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    The original changes are so fucking cool.

    I like it when it goes Bm Em7b5/Bb D/A the best

    I also like that it goes Gm6 Dm with no A7

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  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    I like it when it goes Bm Em7b5/Bb D/A the best


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    It's like all downward chromatic bass movement. Super dramatic.

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    It's like all downward chromatic bass movement. Super dramatic.
    It’s flipping Rachmaninov or sumfink


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  8. #32

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    The second inversion m7b5 or first inversion m6 is hugely underrated.

    I like the original Fmaj7 Am7b5/Eb D7(#11) D7 sooo much more than Fmaj7 Eb7#11 Am7 D7 in Days of Wine and Roses. No contest

    It’s a Robert Schumann vibe apparently, but I always here How Deep is Your Love or Life on Mars. Very romantic chord.


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  9. #33

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    I will add that I do have a couple of other books that have been very helpful for me:

    - Robert Conti "Assembly Line" and "The Formula" along with some of the chord melody arrangements that clearly illustrate his approach in tunes.

    - The two chord melody books by Mike Elliot and the follow-on two by Len Braunling applying the techniques to pop tunes (These have the same basic ideas that Conti greatly expands on with a bunch of tunes showing how these ideas work). So really, these and Conti all point in the same direction. These are long out of print and I never hear people mention the second two books. To me, those second books are just as important because the Mike Elliot books apply the few pages of instruction to standards, while the second two apply the same instruction to modern pop tunes of that time, giving a much broader range of application.

    - The Jeff Arnold series of fingerstyle styling to chord melody arrangements

    - Robert Yelin series of chord melody arrangement books

    - The two Mel Bay Barry Galbraith volumes of chord melody arrangements

    The latter three series listed are good starting points for ideas rather than what I would want to memorize. They are not method books (i.e. no instruction). To me, the fun is in working up tunes my own way using what I have learned rather than learning somebody else's arrangement and always playing it that way. Admittedly, I simply don't have the patience or a good enough memory to do that anyway. But you can learn a lot from playing through the Barry Galbraith arrangements carefully.

    ...and then, the Real Books where we apply all that we have learned to tune after tune after tune. For me, the fun is just opening one of these at random and playing that tune as a chord melody on the spot rather than trudging through writing down an arrangement and painstakingly working it out (i.e. suffering for your art). It is just like learning a language. When you have developed and learned to use a vocabulary, you can begin to converse in real time.

    Tony

  10. #34

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    Oh how could I forget All By Myself - the greatest verse in popular music stolen directly from the Rach-meister. It sees DOWR and Mars and raises it a major minor modal interchange on an F pedal.

    F Bbm/F F Am7b5/Eb Dsus4 D7 Gm

    There ought to be a law against it. I feel dirty.


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  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Yeah, it's just that some people treat them as the definitive answer, and don't research the songs they're learning...with today's technology and access, there's no excuse not to.

    But Real Books are still a great resource. Sometimes I find tunes I want to learn just by flipping through a book.
    The best advice I got for learning from recordings that use multiple instruments was to listen to the bass line. Youtube seems to have nearly everything and it is easy enough to download an MP3 since that is the audio portion of a youtube video and then pick apart the tune to get an idea of the chords being used. Of course, we also have our own favorite subs and "grips" (Joe Pass used that term and it seems to fit nicely, so I stole it).

    My wife likes to work out Sudoku puzzles to keep her brain functioning. I tend to play chess against my Millennium Phoenix chess computer and play chord melody.

    Tony

  12. #36

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    Real books are fine, the burn your real book crowd is just parroting guys from 50 years ago when every bridge either went IV iv ii V(Ellington), iii VI ii V(Rhythm Changes), or Honeysuckle Rose.

  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by AllanAllen
    Real books are fine, the burn your real book crowd is just parroting guys from 50 years ago when every bridge either went IV iv ii V(Ellington), iii VI ii V(Rhythm Changes), or Honeysuckle Rose.
    The case against is that it’s not how the music was really learned or played.

    I don’t have anything against fake books at all and most normal people only have but so much bandwidth for learning by ear.

    I think it’s just that jazz is informal and aural so having everything be based off a book is kind of weird. That manifests more in a pet peeve about people playing from the book though. Learning from them doesn’t really seem like a huge deal

  14. #38

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    I like the idea of learning jazz being more like learning Allman Brothers when I was in a high school jam band than like learning Villa Lobos when I was in college

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
    E half dim. Is that bad?
    It's high time you were up in this debate.

    'Bud Powell and Barry Harris played Bb dim7. But most jazz artists since the time of Miles Davis play the Eø A7b9, including Bill Evans and Keith Jarrett. So, I am not with Barry Harris to insist that it is wrong'

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    It's high time you were up in this debate. Read, mark, and learn.

    'Bud Powell and Barry Harris played Bb dim7. But most jazz artists since the time of Miles Davis play the Eø A7b9, including Bill Evans and Keith Jarrett. So, I am not with Barry Harris to insist that it is wrong'

    AFIAK the only jazz musicians Barry had unqualified admiration for were Bud and Bird (Bird recorded with the original changes on With Strings.) So that tracks. To him what Jarrett and or Evans were doing would have been utterly irrelevant to him.

    Students taking Barry’s word as gospel should bear that in mind. Not everyone who learns from Barry is a die hard bopper.

    However… the Em7b5/C#m7b5 reharm definitely predates the Miles recording. Jim Hall plays more or less the RB changes in G on his first record for in at once.


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  17. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    However… the Em7b5/C#m7b5 reharm definitely predates the Miles recording. Jim Hall plays more or less the RB changes in G on his first record for in at once.


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    He sure does. I didn’t know there was a controversy about that first chord until I saw some Mike Moreno video a few years ago. I learned it from the real book when I was 17 or something and then the Jim Hall solo was one of the first things I really sat down and transcribed and the changes were the same. Without looking at it, I think maybe there’s Bbm6 instead of Bbm7-Eb7 to the Fmaj, but I don’t really remember anymore. It’s pretty much the same so it never really occurred to me that those changes were improper or whatever

  18. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Well I rather think of that as vanilla. Sure, it’ll work, but why not have Bbmaj7#11#9 instead?
    ?? - I can't think of a way to voice a chord with three semitones in it on the guitar (A/Bb, E/F, C#/D)

    P.S. - Probably the only possibility: 1-0-0-3-2-0

    What a lovely way to begin a tune!

    The FM7#5 seems a little too dissonant to start out a tune.

  19. #43

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    Oh - this bad boy

    I like how even the cover tells you off

    I just ordered all the Real Books lol-img_2333-jpg

    ‘Every musician SHOULD know’. Don’t know them? You aren’t EVEN a musician.

    Absolute goldmine of a book. The original changes to I Got Rhythm lol.

    I just ordered all the Real Books lol-img_2334-jpg

    It was the former owner who made the pencil ‘corrections’. I wouldn’t dare.

    EDIT; can anyone remind me how to make these not sideways?

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  20. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick-7
    ?? - I can't think of a way to voice a chord with three semitones in it on the guitar (A/Bb, E/F, C#/D)

    The FM7#5 seems a little too dissonant to start out a tune.
    The joke is that if you could play most of a Bbmaj7#11#9, then it would look an awful lot like Bbo(maj7)

    All the alternate changes are coming from the same place.

    caveat … I could be wrong … I don’t always get Christian’s jokes.

  21. #45

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    At the risk of being on topic, this sounds useful, I know zilch about Linux though.

    GitHub - veltzer/openbook: OpenBook is an open source Jazz real book

  22. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick-7
    ?? - I can't think of a way to voice a chord with three semitones in it on the guitar (A/Bb, E/F, C#/D)

    The FM7#5 seems a little too dissonant to start out a tune.
    I mean at the time they said it was too dissonant to start a tune with

    9 x 8 7 9 x

    but that’s what young wrote. which was unsual at the time.

    so

    6 x 7 6 5 5

    or

    x 8 11 9 10 x

    They are polychords with an A triad against a funny bass note. Both sound modern without losing the sense of the original to my ears.

    i like both very much. You could write them

    A/Bb (aka ‘the nasty chord’)
    or
    A/F (aka ‘the girlfriend chord’)

  23. #47

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    Thank you Christian. Fact is, it's not a chord I've tried to incorporate into my playing, just behind the times I guess....

    "EDIT; can anyone remind me how to make these not sideways?"

    You can rotate it with any image software, e.g., Photos or Paint in Windows.

  24. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by pamosmusic
    The joke is that if you could play most of a Bbmaj7#11#9, then it would look an awful lot like Bbo(maj7)

    All the alternate changes are coming from the same place.

    caveat … I could be wrong … I don’t always get Christian’s jokes.
    I was half joking? But I like the sounds.

    But to me what makes it sound like you’ve done a modern is when you have a derpy derp major triad in the upper structure of a chord as opposed to something like an augmented or in the case of Stella a dissonant structure. Well when I say modern, I mean modern for like 1972. But anyway.

    So in this sense Bbmaj7#9#11 (spelling?) is both like a Bbo(maj7) and also kind of different. Chord symbols are limited anyway. I’d write A/Bb, A/Bbmaj7 if I was feeling frisky.

  25. #49

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    But play the A Bb triad pair over the first chord (doesn’t matter which one). It’s niiiiiice

  26. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick-7
    Thank you Christian. Fact is, it's not a chord I've tried to incorporate into my playing, just behind the times I guess....
    It’s a more unusual sound. For straightahead gigs I lean into the D harmonic minor tonality, or as Barry would have it C7 to the third of A7 (root of C#o7) which is how Bird handled it, but if you want to go a little more post modal on this tune:

    Bbmaj7#9#11 suggests Bb lydian #9 (mode VI of D harmonic minor)
    Bbo(maj7) suggests that or Bb diminished
    Fmaj7#5 suggests F lydian augmented or mode iii of D melodic minor

    Still D minor - ish but more modal

    "EDIT; can anyone remind me how to make these not sideways?"

    You can rotate it with any image software, e.g., Photos or Paint in Windows.
    I tried that obv. It’s like, ‘nope sideways for you!’

    There is a way to do it.

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