Bebop heads: Donna Lee

[Mick-7]

Maybe it's because I'm so bad at sight reading, but I don't see how you can map this out without learning it, or at least playing it..

Of course I play it when I sight read it. When I look at the score I can the see range of the piece, which suggests what position to start at. It will become apparent soon enough if that's not a suitable position. As I said, playing through the entire piece a few times will give me a good idea what will and won't work.

But after watching Joe Pass and a couple of bass players on YouTube, I changed my fingerings a bit.

[CliffR]

Yeah this is definitely the downside of the slurring into downbeats. It’s much easier to play faster up to a point, and then I think the lack of uniformity in the right hand kicks in and you can hit a ceiling. For me that place is usually about 240. And it takes work to push that ceiling up. I think it sounds better, so I do it anyway, but that’s the big consideration.

EDIT: I just played my main Donna Lee fingering at about 255 and it was good, but I’ve been playing it that way for years. I’m working on a Grant Green solo (yes, I’m aware he wouldn’t slur the way I do) and 240 has been my goal because that’s where the lines tend to break up, so that’s still probably the more realistic number for me at the moment.

That's awesome! Last time I recorded Donna Lee I hit 160 picking every note and it felt like I was hitting my limit. I've spent a couple of hours over the last three days working on this slurring version, where I manage to slur into every downbeat except for the opening triplet. Not sure if maybe it's a bit too exaggerated. I've stopped at 160, which is beginning to feel 'fast', but I dare say if I persevered I could get it a little faster. (I think it's more of a psychological thing than a technical thing for me at this speed.) That being said, I can't improvise at anything like this speed, so maybe trying to go faster should not be my main priority at the moment.

(Since this is such serious business, I felt I had to get the Charvel out to do justice to the tune.)

[princeplanet]

MM for the win (again)...

TBH, as much as I found DL a great technical exercise, if chasing vocab ideas I think I'd rather spend time copping Matteo's solo ideas as opposed to the head...

[pamosmusic]

Can I pour some oil on troubled waters by suggesting a move between positions and switch from three to four fingers?

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Peacemaker

[AllanAllen]

MM for the win (again)...

TBH, as much as I found DL a great technical exercise, if chasing vocab ideas I think I'd rather spend time copping Matteo's solo ideas as opposed to the head...

Yeah… Matteo is not for me.

Feel free to participate in the thread and post a clip of you playing his chops though.

[pamosmusic]

That's awesome! Last time I recorded Donna Lee I hit 160 picking every note and it felt like I was hitting my limit. I've spent a couple of hours over the last three days working on this slurring version, where I manage to slur into every downbeat except for the opening triplet. Not sure if maybe it's a bit too exaggerated. I've stopped at 160, which is beginning to feel 'fast', but I dare say if I persevered I could get it a little faster. (I think it's more of a psychological thing than a technical thing for me at this speed.) That being said, I can't improvise at anything like this speed, so maybe trying to go faster should not be my main priority at the moment.

(Since this is such serious business, I felt I had to get the Charvel out to do justice to the tune.)

Nice! Sounds slick.

I usually end up going for some combination of the two. Like I find the left hand fingering I like most and then get all the downbeat slurs in that I can.

Yours sounds very saxophone the way you have it.

One thing I’ve found (and this might be just me) is that it really helps to play the eighth notes very very straight at lower tempos. As it speeds up, the eighth notes will straighten anyway, so if I have an exaggerated first eighth note, the ceiling on speed tends to be much lower.

[princeplanet]

Yeah… Matteo is not for me.

Feel free to participate in the thread and post a clip of you playing his chops though.

Not sure how that would help you (especially if not a fan), besides, you can already see his fingerings!

[mr. beaumont]

Matteo kicks ass, but there's not much for me here as I'll never be playing it like that...

I did try this on my nylon string a few days ago...and clearly my fingerstyle chops are not what I think they are...

[princeplanet]

Matteo kicks ass, but there's not much for me here as I'll never be playing it like that...

...

Not even for just checking out his left hand fingerings? But yeah, I think his right hand fingerpicking technique allows him to get around the usual problems we plectrists are challenged with. Mind you, in developing his own formidable technique, I'm sure he had to overcome a few challenges of his own!

[AllanAllen]

Not sure how that would help you (especially if not a fan), besides, you can already see his fingerings!

It would help keep the thread going and more clips by members is a good thing.

[Christian Miller]

It’s so good, but also requires some weird kind of discipline so it’s hard to make students really stick to it.

And myself for that matter.

One big thing I find is needing to keep students moving through the piece rather than getting stuck on one mistake on the first go. Trying to teach kids not to play the first two bars a million times is sort of 30% of my job haha. They do tend to think you’ve gone mad at first when you tell them to play the last bar first.


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[mr. beaumont]

Not even for just checking out his left hand fingerings? But yeah, I think his right hand fingerpicking technique allows him to get around the usual problems we plectrists are challenged with. Mind you, in developing his own formidable technique, I'm sure he had to overcome a few challenges of his own!

Yeah, when I tried out DL fingerstyle the fingerings I was using for the pick weren't making as much sense...so since I don't see myself playing DL fingerstyle at this point, I don't think it's a detour I want to take...at least yet

[deacon Mark]

I seemed to have tried it in many different fingerings. I do think that simply helps in getting around on the guitar but frankly after a while most of them yield the same results. I don't do is the 3 finger approach. God gave me 4 fingers and a thumb and I am going to use them to carry 4 fret span. When I look at Adam Rogers that is the way to finger and play the guitar. The guy to me looks the smoothest and coolest of any player I know. It is like watching perfect running stride in a 400 meter dash. From all I can tell he uses each finger on his hand equally.

Now I am not Adam Rogers that I think is really the problem.................help.

[Mick-7]

MM for the win (again)

No, if sheer speed is the criteria here, Niels-Henning Pederson (with Joe Pass) is playing it faster than Matteo and on a stand up bass! Now that is amazing!

But thank you, MM pretty much used the same fingerings I chose - in fact a couple that I changed after watching NHOP and Jaco play it (I'll upload that).

FYI, There are errors (wrong notes) in the YouTube Matteo transcription in bars 6 and 7, and wrong fingering shown in the final bar of B section - said he's playing notes in the first fret position, which he cannot do because he's got that string muting thingie covering it. Is that thing worth losing a fret over?!

[deacon Mark]

MM wins for sure at least on speed and smooth playing. He is playing a solidbody and probably with pretty light touch. To me it is the touch with ease that makes it flow very good. However, his sound and the depth of his sound is not Joe Pass, nor does it translate too well to my 1938 L5 set up with 12-52 strings. Not saying which is better or making a competition just a different way to approach the tune. Frankly he wins in the gig if they call the tune at 260 BPM and I have to step up and play. I would just bow out and say, not today maybe I get there.

[Mick-7]

MM wins for sure at least on speed and smooth playing.

As I said, the Pass/Pederson clip is faster (time it) and Niels is playing it with good articulation/phrasing on an upright bass, it's much harder to do that. The video I posted is not the best example of his playing.

P.S. - I modified my fingerings tab that I posted in this post: Bebop heads: Donna Lee

[Christian Miller]

I seemed to have tried it in many different fingerings. I do think that simply helps in getting around on the guitar but frankly after a while most of them yield the same results. I don't do is the 3 finger approach. God gave me 4 fingers and a thumb and I am going to use them to carry 4 fret span. When I look at Adam Rogers that is the way to finger and play the guitar. The guy to me looks the smoothest and coolest of any player I know. It is like watching perfect running stride in a 400 meter dash. From all I can tell he uses each finger on his hand equally.

Now I am not Adam Rogers that I think is really the problem.................help.

Adam Rogers is the first person I think of when I think of a jazz player who has a very classical left hand along with Pasquale. Unsurprisingly both have a very thorough classical background.

I prefer the way my linear playing sounds and above all FEELs when I avoid the 4th finger. I think there’s something amiss there, either I retrain to better use four fingers or retrain to use three. Choose your poison - but some things are best done in early childhood lol.

Some things definitely need four fingers.

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[pamosmusic]

As I said, the Pass/Pederson clip is faster (time it) and Niels is playing it with good articulation/phrasing on an upright bass, it's much harder to do that. The video I posted is not the best example of his playing. But I do prefer Mateo's improvisation on the tune to Pass'es.

Less interested here in which world-class guitarist (or bassist) is playing the tune better or smoother or faster or whatever.

More interested in what people on the forum are learning from tackling the tune.

[Mick-7]

I prefer the way my linear playing sounds and above all FEELs when I avoid the 4th finger. I think there’s something amiss there, either I retrain to better use four fingers or retrain to use three.

Did you use 3 fingers in your formative learning period? Most who started out playing rock/blues did so. I started out finger picking country blues/folk music so used all 4 fingers right off the bat.

[deacon Mark]

As I said, the Pass/Pederson clip is faster (time it) and Niels is playing it with good articulation/phrasing on an upright bass, it's much harder to do that. The video I posted is not the best example of his playing.

Joe was incredibly humble and did not play fast just for the sake of playing fast. He like to play tunes and the melody. That said, when he had to gear it up and play with Peterson or making a point, Joe could take playing to a level that was really with any jazz musician. I think both him and NHOP both showed that instruments that did not flow for single lines like horns and piano, could still hang on.

BTW, I could not tell much what fingering he used but Joe always used 4 fingers, he is the master. If you played this tune with Joe, he would be glad to play it at any tempo with you it was not a contest, 140 BPM he would nod and go. That said my goal is 230 clean and smooth. Ok I said it.

[Christian Miller]

Well MM sounds like he’s practiced his ahem MM chord scale patterns in fourths and joes playing fluent ripping lines out of the bop tradition.

Horses for courses.

Peak Joe in any case. What a gig!

NHOP - very relaxed feeling at 280, no?

Mancuso’s approach is quite legato, reminds me of another MM, Mike Moreno’s fingerings which I cribbed myself.


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[Christian Miller]

Did you use 3 fingers in your formative learning period? Most who started out playing rock/blues did so. I started out finger picking country blues/folk music so used all 4 fingers right off the bat.

No I had classical lessons but I started late, and moved over to blues/rock, then jazz. I always used four fingers.


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[Christian Miller]

I think if to watch vids of me playing you can see my left hand form is not great. I can play fast, but the pinky tends to rush. I think this is down to a lack of conservation of movement and equality with the other fingers. At some points it’s easier to go with what you do well than try to overcome a weakness.

(That said have just spent six months working on an Allan Holdsworth solo lol, so who knows where my head is at ….)

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[sgcim]

MM for the win (again)...

TBH, as much as I found DL a great technical exercise, if chasing vocab ideas I think I'd rather spend time copping Matteo's solo ideas as opposed to the head...

Sounds like a robot.

[Jimmy Smith]

The feel is a bit robotic lol but still epic playing. MM is a beast.