Well You Needn’t Changes

[AllanAllen]

I’m hearing F6 Gb7 F7 C7 for the A

and G7 G7 Ab7 Ab7 A7 Bb7 B7 Bb7 A7 Ab7 G7 C#m7b5 for the B

This doesn’t match iReal or the 557 pdf.

Any thoughts? Are these just acceptable substitutions, or something I need to talk through before we go into the tune?

[pamosmusic]

Hearing the usual F6 and Gb7 in the a section, but that’s a pretty tritone-y Gb7 chord so there might be a C bass note in there now and again.

The Gb7 and C7 in this case being pretty much interchangeable.

And to that point … the real book changes (and usually Monk’s) for the bridge start on Eb7 and make the same bass motion you’ve outlined here. Yours start on A7, which makes all your chords a tritone away from the usuals. Thats a pretty common alternative bridge to this tune. I think that’s from the Miles recording originally? Can’t remember.

[AllanAllen]

The melody is b7 sliding into major 7 up to the third? The lick in the intro? I thought it was b5/5 Root 5.

so the first chord of the intro is A7 and the lick is Db D A D.

The intro is also the bridge.

[pamosmusic]

The melody is b7 sliding into major 7 up to the third? The lick in the intro? I thought it was b5/5 Root 5.

so the first chord of the intro is A7 and the lick is Db D A D.

The intro is also the bridge.

Not sure I understand the question.

[AllanAllen]

Okay I got mixed up between bar 17 and bar 21. Either way I don’t see Eb fitting.

Editing: typos.

[pamosmusic]

Okay I got mixed up between bar 17 and bar 21. Either way I don’t see Eb fitting.

Editing: typos.

Eb in bar 21, over A7?

I guess first thing is that Eb wouldn't be super weird over an A7.

But in this case, probably better described as D#. It's an approach not to E natural. So it's fifth and root over every chord with an approach note before the fifth.

[JazzPadd]

Great tune, among my favorite changes to jam on since as long as I can remember. But which changes?

I first played "Well You Needn't" back in the 1980s when I was a work-a-day musician in NY. It never got played on gigs (mostly weddings), but we used what was then known as "The Real Book 1978 Totally Revised Edition" (published in Syosset, NY) and I found WYN there and played it at jam sessions. An interesting thing about that old Real Book was they referenced recordings, and at the bottom of the page for WYN it listed: Monk - The Thelonious Monk Septet, The Thelonious Monk Story, and Miles Davis Plays Jazz Classics. In any case, the A section changes from that unofficial, more or less bootleg, 1978 version of the RB are a bar each of F7 and Gb7 x3 and then 2 bars of F7, while the B section is G7 2 bars, Ab7 2 bars then a bar of A7-Bb7, B7-Bb7, A7-Ab7, Gm7-C7. I know the old RBs are notorious for their inaccurate chord changes, not to mention often haphazard melody notes. IIRC Monk said that Miles played it wrong.

Fast forward to the 2010s. I find myself living in Japan after a long hiatus from playing and taking up jazz guitar as a casual pastime. While leafing through my nice new copy of The Jazz Standard Bible, which is something like a Real Book in Japan, I come across Well You Needn't. So I pull out my old dog-eared '78 RB for comparison and it's almost identical save the last bar of the B section, which in the JSB is G7-Gb7. I know that between the 1980s and the 2010s, the RB was revised, corrected, expanded, copyrighted, etc., but the only RB I've seen here is the old one from Japanese players who went to Berklee back in the day.

So what's the point of all this, and which changes do we use? From where I'm sitting, and based on my very limited experience, no one here ever plays Well You Needn't. But I still love to play it, so I call it at jam sessions. And if no-one knows a tune, out comes the JSB. I prefer not to spend precious jam session time trying to explain the old debate on stage, not to mention the language differences, so we just use the JSB changes, which is the book we have in common. It'd likely be different if I was gigging, or perhaps wanted to record it; we'd have discussions, work out an arrangement, etc. But jam sessions are their own thing.

Needless to say, we can learn so much by transcribing Kenny Burrell's version of Well You Needn't, or Monk's, or Miles' or anyone else's version, and there's also of course something to be said for respecting the composer's intent, etc. But if the immediate purpose is simply to have a bit a fun with this or any other tune at a jam session, then the book in common use in that scene can be an arbiter for practical reasons.

However, I'd like to hear more about how repertoire decisions or jam sessions proceed in other scenes.

[pamosmusic]

dunno about the RB changes but the correct chord to start the bridge is Dbadd9

Tritone sub for every chord in the bridge is a pretty common alternative. That’s what they’re doing in the Kenny Burrell recording in the OP.

[AllanAllen]

So, if the first chord of the bridge, in the version I posted, is now Dbadd9? They melody plays D and A over a Dbadd9 chord?

And, that makes sense, if Dbadd9 is a tritone sub for G?

[AllanAllen]

However, I'd like to hear more about how repertoire decisions or jam sessions proceed in other scenes.

The guys in my band will work off a chart if I give it to them, bass player likes iReal and trumpet likes a lead sheet. They've been open to everything I suggested so far, trumpet player, the most professional, says he enjoys the tunes I pick because they are fun and not the same beginner jazz standards people usually call.

If I move forward with this tune I'll just use the Hal Leonard RB changes, but I'm trying to develop my ear and learn things without a chart.

[pamosmusic]

So, if the first chord of the bridge, in the version I posted, is now Dbadd9? They melody plays D and A over a Dbadd9 chord?

And, that makes sense, if Dbadd9 is a tritone sub for G?

Yep. And actually looking at iReal, your changes are there listed as alternate changes.

And I guess to actually answer your original question. This is a discussion one, but sort of the way "what key" is a discussion for Autumn Leaves or Just Friends. If it's a situation where folks know the tune, it's common enough that folks will probably be familiar with both sets.

Upside being that Monk is so crunchy that if the bass player plays Db and you play G, it's kind of six-of-one, half-dozen of the other.

EDIT: your changes, except the C#m7b5 at the end of the bridge, which I'm guessing is just an upper structure voicing for the underlying bassline.

[Rick5]

Jazzadvice.com has a really cool article/lesson on this tune that goes into a ton of detail, but it's part of their premium subscription.

Sent from my SM-S918U using Tapatalk

[Reg]

So... Allen ... No

The melody is different between the monk and miles versions'

I played the tune at two gigs last week.... and use different versions. They're both fun.

I usually use the Sher version. Which also shows the alternate bridge with a different melody, Monks version with 7th chords. should be Maj add 9.

Back in early 70's before the real book, or what would become the real book, we used the miles version. The newer Real book, is the last choice... LOL. It's like a mix of the two version.... and as djg said, the Monk version uses Dbmaj9 or Dbmaj. add 9 chords. And usually for last 4 bars of bridge... / Eb E /Eb D /Db C / B C/.

I mean you can use kenny's version, it's kind of a combined version of both. Maybe use a C7#9 instead of the -7b5

ireal sucks... LOL. It works if you use it as a memory aid. Generally you call with version up front.

And of course the 1st part of the melody in "A" also has different choices LOL.

[enalnitram]

Here is the blindfold test where Monk describes the beginning of bridge as being a 9th interval (Db/Eb) not a 7 chord.
See #5:
Thelonious Monk

Breakdown...

....related ....

Edit: oops, jinx.

[pamosmusic]

So... Allen ... No

The melody is different between the monk and miles versions'

I played the tune at two gigs last week.... and use different versions. They're both fun.

I usually use the Sher version. Which also shows the alternate bridge with a different melody, Monks version with 7th chords. should be Maj add 9.

Back in early 70's before the real book, or what would become the real book, we used the miles version. The newer Real book, is the last choice... LOL. It's like a mix of the two version.... and as djg said, the Monk version uses Dbmaj9 or Dbmaj. add 9 chords. And usually for last 4 bars of bridge... / Eb E /Eb D /Db C / B C/.

I mean you can use kenny's version, it's kind of a combined version of both. Maybe use a C7#9 instead of the -7b5

ireal sucks... LOL. It works if you use it as a memory aid. Generally you call with version up front.

And of course the 1st part of the melody in "A" also has different choices LOL.

Oh yeah I missed the part about the
melody in that question about the tritone sub.

Monk version is the Db up to Eb up to Ab and moves that figure up and down chromatically the same way the miles version does with the other figure.

Monk version also that F major triad figure in the A section from the third of the triad rather than the fifth.

For monk versions of monk tunes, the Steve Cardenas transcriptions are awesome.

[AllanAllen]

So, anyone want to talk about the Kenny Burrell version? So we can all talk about the same thing? Can someone tell me if it’s based off the Davis or the Monk one?

I appreciate people trying to help, but can we start at the start? As the thread goes on I’m more and more
confused.

[pamosmusic]

So, anyone want to talk about the Kenny Burrell version? So we can all talk about the same thing? Can someone tell me if it’s based off the Davis or the Monk one?

I appreciate people trying to help, but can we start at the start? As the thread goes on I’m more and more
confused.

The Kenny Burrell one is a more straight up version of the Miles one (the miles one has some displacement of the melody between the two horns, which is cool).

You’ve got the changes more or less right and I think the melody right, based on your description.

[AllanAllen]

I mean you can use kenny's version, it's kind of a combined version of both. Maybe use a C7#9 instead of the -7b5

Thanks Reg. This helps me get a grasp on things. The whole thing helped, I just wanted to highlight the part where you talked about Kenny Burrell because of an earlier comment.

[AllanAllen]

The Kenny Burrell one is a more straight up version of the Miles one (the miles one has some displacement of the melody between the two horns, which is cool).

You’ve got the changes more or less right and I think the melody right, based on your description.

Thanks Peter.

[enalnitram]

So, anyone want to talk about the Kenny Burrell version? So we can all talk about the same thing? Can someone tell me if it’s based off the Davis or the Monk one?

I appreciate people trying to help, but can we start at the start? As the thread goes on I’m more and more
confused.

Sorry if I contributed to confusion. I was (in my own head) responding to the last part of your first post. The G7 is not an acceptable substitution in some peoples' opinion.

[Rick5]

Oh yeah I missed the part about the
melody in that question about the tritone sub.

Monk version is the Db up to Eb up to Ab and moves that figure up and down chromatically the same way the miles version does with the other figure.

Monk version also that F major triad figure in the A section from the third of the triad rather than the fifth.

For monk versions of monk tunes, the Steve Cardenas transcriptions are awesome.

The Steve Cardenas book is so cool!

Sent from my SM-S918U using Tapatalk

[AllanAllen]

Sorry if I contributed to confusion. I was (in my own head) responding to the last part of your first post. The G7 is not an acceptable substitution in some peoples' opinion.

No, not at all. I had to take it all in and let it stew. That Monk blindfold test was revealing, he was out there.

[JazzPadd]

The guys in my band will work off a chart if I give it to them, bass player likes iReal and trumpet likes a lead sheet. They've been open to everything I suggested so far, trumpet player, the most professional, says he enjoys the tunes I pick because they are fun and not the same beginner jazz standards people usually call.

If I move forward with this tune I'll just use the Hal Leonard RB changes, but I'm trying to develop my ear and learn things without a chart.

Thanks for sharing, that's valuable. And I'm with your bassist, fun tunes like Well You Needn't keep things interesting. Since you're playing this with a band, then you all can work out whatever changes (Monk, Miles, Kenny, etc.) you like to use. Wish you all the best in your quest!

[JazzPadd]

So, anyone want to talk about the Kenny Burrell version? So we can all talk about the same thing? Can someone tell me if it’s based off the Davis or the Monk one?

I appreciate people trying to help, but can we start at the start? As the thread goes on I’m more and more
confused.

Point taken. Getting back on track, I like the Kenny Burrell version that you picked, too, and I agree as others have noted that he seems to be playing off of the Miles Davis changes and melody.

The way Kenny plays the bridge, the first chord sounds to me like G6/9 and he appears to be moving that shape up and down chromatically. I seem to recall seeing a video a while back of Kenny playing it with 4ths (EAD on strings 234 and then adding G with his pinky). I can't find the video now, but there's a transcription by someone playing it Kenny's way. Using the G6/9 on the bridge, without the 7th, concurs with Bill Frisell's realization that you don't always need 7ths or even full chords (BTW, great video, @enalnitram, thanks!).

The old RB and the JSB use the G7 on the bridge, and that might be how a lot of people learned it before the Hal Leonard revision and expansion of the old RBs. However, if you go that route with your band, then the Hal Leonard RB chart won't work, since HL seems to be playing off the Monk changes, i.e. beginning the bridge with Db7 and the Eb-Ab in the melody. Steve Cardenas, in his wonderfully valuable Monk "Fake Book," also begins the bridge with a Db chord (although he wisely uses triads only). With all due respect to Monk and Cardenas, I think you ought to go with your initial intuition and play it Kenny Burrell's way. In any case, many thanks for starting this thread and do let us know how you decide to proceed with it.

Personally speaking, and with all these interesting and informative debates aside, I've always enjoyed the Miles version (G7 on the bridge). In fact, I'm running through that as we speak and will call it from the JSB in this Wednesday's jam session, and I will be using Kenny's introduction based off of the bridge changes.

[JazzPadd]

Here is the blindfold test where Monk describes the beginning of bridge as being a 9th interval (Db/Eb) not a 7 chord.
See #5:
Thelonious Monk

Breakdown...

....related ....

Edit: oops, jinx.

Thank you (and Reg) very much for both of these, very informative, especially how the pianist demonstrates the difference between playing the chords on the bridge with and without the 7ths. To me, the version with the 7ths sounds bluesy. Interestingly, Kenny Burrell seems to be using 6/9 chords on the bridge, but his playing is very blues inflected. I suppose that's the sign of a great song, that it stands alone as artistry but also lends itself very well to whatever others may bring to it. From where I'm sitting, the wide intervals the pianist is playing sound fantastic, but that's on piano. For guitar, as a more minimalist instrument (in my view), Bill Frisell extrapolated a nice compromise (and evoking Jim Hall) by noting that guitarists have to use the instrument's limitations to carefully select notes that can inflect various colors.