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Hi,
I have all volumes of the HL RB series. Obviously, I don't know all of those tunes, but of the tunes I know, I have generally found the charts to be good. Has anyone noticed any major errors? I can't say that I have for the tunes I know. I try to learn the tunes from recordings, but I will also peek at as many charts as I can find too when learning a new tune (e.g., chuck sher, HL, Learn Jazz Standards).
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02-07-2024 09:57 AM
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You can compare the HL books to the original real books here:
Partitions gratuites. Real Book - Volume 1, 2, 3(C, Eb, Bb)
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Assuming that the Partitions Gratuites Real Books versions are themselves accurate! This is their version of Summertime and I've never seen it written like this before:
https://www.swiss-jazz.ch/standards-jazz/Summertime.pdf
I'm not saying it's no good, by the way. It looks quite interesting :-)
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The most accurate books I've personally seen are the New Real Books
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Yeah the old ones weren’t great. I don’t think it’s that the new ones are inaccurate, just that the notion of a more or less standard lead sheet gives the impression that there’s a correct way to play a tune. When in reality, there are loads of different little variations in the way people play certain changes. Let alone reharmonizations and that sort of thing.
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This^^^
Originally Posted by pamosmusic
The Sher "New Real Book" series as mentioned above by Petimar are quite accurate...but if you're looking for standards as opposed to strictly jazz tunes, the Hal Leonard Real books (what is there, like 6 of them now?) have a bigger selection of tunes...
The new ones are not as much inaccurate as they are a bit vanilla. The Sher series is much more specific about chords, and mentions recordings which is nice. There's a few questionable keys in the Hal Leonard series, but overall no glaring errors.
With any fakebook/lead sheet, it's always important to listen to the actual tune and make decisions...ears uber alles. A lead sheet is a suggestion, not law.
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Great responses everyone. I agree with everything written. Regarding the sher real books, of course I haven't looked at every tune, but for the tunes I know, I have found minimal (and sometimes no) differences between the HL books and the sher books. I always try to learn from recordings, but I also try to look at as many charts as I can find when learning a tune. Also, when I look at the charts, I don't pay much attention to the extensions/alterations that are written. I just think of the basics,i.e., major, minor, dominant, diminished. I remember back in the day when I was on Jimmy Bruno's site he used to stress thinking it that way (Joe Pass too if I recall).
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With Standards, those extensions are more like suggestions, or possibilities, a lot of the time...as in "you could do this...maybe something else too, though." Originally Posted by Rick5
With more modern stuff, sometimes those extensions (thinking more Sher books) are the correct chord. It takes a while to be able to figure out when it means one thing and when it means another, but the more tunes you learn, the easier it gets...
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Yeah I always learn tunes with shell voicings at first. Bass motion and guide tones. Originally Posted by Rick5
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They're OK, I have always bought all the fake books...just to support. I was at Berklee when Steve was putting together and expanding the original, not called the Real Book yet. Still have copy
Anyway the Sher Music books are better, but mainly just because they are actual transcriptions and better notation. Not to mentioned... Chuck still plays ... he was with Randy Vincent's trio with Kendrick Freeman a few months ago in our North bay. Use to perform with Mark Levine also... I have also performed with all these musicians... but the point is they are just a Reference to work from and save TIME.
Most jazz musicians don't play same thing over.... they just help with the basic outline.
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Yes! Originally Posted by Reg
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Some tunes in those books are more accurate than others. Most changes are fine. A few are glaringly wrong.
A lead sheet is like driving directions hastily scribbled on scrap paper with a pencil. Who knows which gas station attendant told whomever to do it that way, what roads may or may not have been open at the time, or how skilled the note-taker was in understanding the unfamiliar speaking accent of the direction-giver?
An arrangement found online is like a very specific map. Probably a topographic map, when what you were hoping for, was something else.
The way we eventually play our favorite tunes, will involve scenic diversions gained over weeks/months/years of repetition. The quality of your diversions are (of course) subjective.
I appreciate all of the fake books....they represent a head start.Last edited by enalnitram; 02-08-2024 at 03:13 PM.
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Nothing to do with accuracy, just the prevalence of fake books. I have Xerox copies of a couple of old fake books made from those owned by a long-dead guitarist friend of my father. They're rather crude, made back in the '40s or '50s, a combination of typewriter and handwritten, done using a mimeograph machine for reproduction. No actual notation, just chord charts. They differ somewhat from the Real Books on some tunes, but I think they were done by an actual musician, because I usually like their changes better than what I see in the Real Books. Fake books didn't begin with the Real Book, that was just another step in the history of them.
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But who's to say what complete accuracy is? How do we know? Depends on the version, doesn't it? Versions vary enormously even by the same artist from performance to performance.
I think searching for 'accuracy' may be a mistaken pursuit. With all due respect to the OP, he'd do better settling for a version he thinks sounds okay.
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The new editions (HL) are certainly a LOT more accurate than the old illegal ones.
There’s some famous mistakes in the old ones, the no siding four bars of Desifinado being one of the more legendary ones for example. Also a lot of fairly poor choices for the chords, transcription errors etc. it was still apparently far and away better than anything else at the time and as a historical document it’s actually fascinating. Loads of interesting and unusual tunes in there many of which are absent from the new HL books (cos no one plays them). However you can get a pdf of the old RBs easily enough if you are curious.
OTOH the Sher books are worth having too.
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I’ve seen things you youg’uns wouldn’t believe!
An Eb7 chord in Four. Four missing bars in Desifinado. D7 Db7 as the turnaround to Foortprints. Untitled Pat Metheny tunes that would be recorded on Bright Size Life a few short years later. Lead sheets for Frank Zappa tunes.
All these things will be lost in time, like tears in rain
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Good times!
Shit, I still have the first two "illegal" Real Books, and, you know, they're fine. I can't imagine anybody would read even a basic tune, either a standard or a jazz standard at first glance on a job and say, "Yep, that's the one!"
But still good for memory aid, and lots of space for pencilling in outright corrections or just adding some notes/variations.
Think about it, though!
Some kids show up at jam sessions and they don't know "Hotel Hello" and so you got to lend them your book just so they can make the changes!
But, seriously, I love the Chuck Sher real books. Accurate, lots of subs indicated, often times rhythms or bass lines indicated when crucial. Never bothered to invest in the new Hal Leonard Real Book series, since I already "fixed" the old ones, and, praise be, never really have to carry around the books these days.
Still, "Ida Lupino" in Bb! Quick! Take first solo! You gotta know that shit! Those are a great look back in time, flaws and all.
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There are a couple of tunes by Jack Zucker in one of the old real books, as I recall. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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I think that’s the turn around for Pat Martino. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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What does “accurate” mean here? True to the original sheet music? A faithful transcription of a particular performance? A good representation of common practice — where? When? In what style? Or just free of egregious errors like those in the original RBs?
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Yes I saw that :-) Originally Posted by grahambop
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Maybe he learned it from the real book Originally Posted by AllanAllen
In seriousness there’s a long tradition in jazz of other jazz musicians playing compositions by other jazz musicians wrong. Miles Davis is a classic example. Well You Needn’t, Round Midnight, Stablemates, Conception… the list goes on….
incidentally as far as I can see, the changes in the RB tend to cleave more to the Miles Davis versions in general. This is not of itself a bad thing because many jazzers know those tunes from the Miles recordings so often you may find yourself playing those changes. But it’s important imo to know that they are different from the originals.
I don’t actually know if this is also true of Hal Leonard edition. I should have a look at it at some point.
The Sher new real book version of Footprints is very close to Wayne’s lead sheet fwiw, including that lovely 5:3 tuplet phrasing in the melody. Mostly they try to get as close as they can to the composer’s original changes etc. This is less true of the vocal tin pan alley type standards though than for modern jazz stuff. They will tend to opt for whatever they think are the most frequently used changes for a tune rather than what was in the original sheet music or whatever.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkLast edited by Christian Miller; 02-11-2024 at 01:29 PM.
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I like to think Metheny learned the Martino version and that’s why it’s in the RB. Metheny being in Burtons band which is the rumored original source of the sheets.
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As the OP, I meant it in the sense of glaringly bad chord choices that no one plays or other obvious "major mistakes." As I mentioned somewhere in this thread, at least for the tunes I know that are in common to sher books (I have the digital versions which don't have all of the tunes in the print NRB series) and HL, I haven't noticed any major differences. Some tunes have identical changes, and most others have really minor differences. I view all of these books as more data points that go along with recordings and other things I can access (e.g., Barry Greene's site) when learning a new tune. Certainly not the Bible or anything like that- lol. Originally Posted by pcjazz
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Don't forget to check out the Hal Leonard Just Jazz Real Book. I picked up my edition about 20 years ago when it was released by Warner Bros - not too sure when the changeover took place.
The charts are excellent with prominent comping figures included, especially for post '50s jazz tunes. An added bonus is that lyrics appear for all the vocal numbers along with the opening verses to most of the older standards:
Just Jazz Real Book - C Edition (Sheet Music) Fake Book (321416) by Hal Leonard
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