Songs to work on for technique and rhythm?

[Kirk Garrett]

He calls them pitch collections to avoid modes. He explained in an interview or DVD that this is how it was back when he came up. It was all “one a these, and one of those” “Sears roebuck bridge” or “Ellington bridge”

Everything wasn’t codified in his scene(specifically the Buddy Rich band) and it mattered More that you could play over that you knew all the names and definitions.

The forum is a strange place because we are isolated we need to know the names, It’s not like going over stuff in a room. Yet we still get people who can’t play and don’t know shit filling up the threads. (That’s a dig at myself)

And there they are; his “5 shapes” are an application of the major scale. No way around it.

[GuyBoden]

And there they are; his “5 shapes” are an application of the major scale. No way around it.

The original I bought, a long time along, had six fingering patterns.

He must have lost one.

Edit: A similar, new styled book still exists.
Six Essential Fingerings for the Jazz Guitarist (Book) by Jimmy Bruno.

[jazznylon]

I was inspired to make this thread through a lesson that in order to be a professional player repertoire becomes a very important part of one's practice (yeah stating the obvious). So from there I'm trying to base everything on going through tunes. Reading? Use the real book. Technique? Challenging Heads. etc etc. There are loads of stuff to work on but they're all centered around tunes.

Maybe there are better ways to go about practicing but rather than go for an illusive 'best way to spend time on the instrument' I'm just trying to see what works at this point. If I spend too much time thinking about the best way to practice I'll just end up not doing anything. Thankfully I have a teacher and I should get back to working things I've been taught so yeah.. have a good one everyone!

[bediles]

Scared another one off...

[Kirk Garrett]

The original I bought, a long time along, had six fingering patterns.

He must have lost one.

Edit: A similar, new styled book still exists.
Six Essential Fingerings for the Jazz Guitarist (Book) by Jimmy Bruno.

I wonder what the “missing” pattern is? Guessing it’s the good ol’ one starting on the tonic.

[bediles]

"The angels share" of the fretboard, I reckon

[AllanAllen]

I wonder what the “missing” pattern is? Guessing it’s the good ol’ one starting on the tonic.

The 5 patterns match the CAGED fingerings now.

[Kirk Garrett]

The 5 patterns match the CAGED fingerings now.

What’s the missing 6th position?

[AllanAllen]

I don’t think it was CAGED +1. Anyway here they are from the No Nonsense Jazz Guitar booklet.

[Kirk Garrett]

^ Not sure how those relate to Bruno’s five shapes, but I might be missing the context. These scales all appear to start on the root note, whereas the five shapes all start on some other note of the major scale, like modes, although Jimmy vociferously says they are not modes or scales but just shapes or positions.

[Peter C]

Reading back here, I honestly don't see what's wrong with learning bebop heads if it serves to internalize phrasing and feel; it's eventually going to come out in your playing in terms of technique and rhythmic skills if done properly, right? No?

Also I don't see that pamosmusic is trying to come across as a badass player and have certainly heard worse versions of Solar (I saw the live one in YT) - maybe a case of mistaken identity, Reg?

[pamosmusic]

- maybe a case of mistaken identity, Reg?

You're very gracious, but I don’t think that’s the case.

[morgan76]

1301328[/URL]]^ Not sure how those relate to Bruno’s five shapes, but I might be missing the context. These scales all appear to start on the root note, whereas the five shapes all start on some other note of the major scale, like modes, although Jimmy vociferously says they are not modes or scales but just shapes or positions.

5 playing positions across the neck that cover the C major pitch collection.

[GuyBoden]

Jimmy Bruno 6 Fingerings for Jazz Guitar.

Here they are on video.

[AllanAllen]

^ Not sure how those relate to Bruno’s five shapes, but I might be missing the context. These scales all appear to start on the root note, whereas the five shapes all start on some other note of the major scale, like modes, although Jimmy vociferously says they are not modes or scales but just shapes or positions.

I dunno man… It’s the shapes Jimmy Bruno goes over in his DVD No Nonsense Jazz Guitar. Maybe the transcriber “cleaned them up”

I can’t rip the DVD and post the clip of him demonstrating it.

[Kirk Garrett]

I dunno man… It’s the shapes Jimmy Bruno goes over in his DVD No Nonsense Jazz Guitar. Maybe the transcriber “cleaned them up”

I can’t rip the DVD and post the clip of him demonstrating it.

I get that. But the images you posted appear to be major scales starting on the tonic in each case.

Whereas the five positions start on a different note of the scale each time. Just like modes.

[pamosmusic]

I get that. But the images you posted appear to be major scales starting on the tonic in each case.

Whereas the five positions start on a different note of the scale each time. Just like modes.

I think this distinction would probably be what Jimmy Bruno was attempting to avoid. The scale or mode starts on whatever note you start on. The example I always think of is Happy Birthday. Starts on the fifth, but isn’t in a mixolydian mode. Theres some utility to think of them from their roots, even when you’re thinking of all the notes below the root in the position too. The UNT way of playing a scale or mode or whatever is to start on the root in the position, play up to the top of the position, down to the bottom of the position, and then back to the root. You could do that for any note in the scale to get the sound of the modes in your ear. It also kind of puts you in the frame of mind that I’d imagine Jimmy is going for with the “pitch collection” phraseology. The scale is a place to locate what you’re looking for, rather than a rigid thing.

Also I never got into Jimmy Bruno’s, thing so I have no idea of the timeline. But it’s also possible his terminology changed a bit later. Or it occurred to him to change the notation to better reflect his approach or whatever.

disclaimer: I didn’t go to UNT but my first jazz guitar teacher did and, golly gee, he was a task master.

[grahambop]

My recollection of the ‘six fingerings’ book (I haven’t looked at it for a while) is that after going through the 6 major scale fingerings, Jimmy goes on to derive dorian and mixolydian scales from them (by starting from the relevant scale degrees), also possibly he gets into melodic minor and harmonic minor stuff too.

I think the basic idea is the 6 fingerings are designed so that all the other stuff can also be played out of them, with minimal adjustments.

I also have the video and as I recall it is similar, though maybe he covers less ground in it.

[morgan76]

They don't "start" on a particular note - within each shape there's a highest and lowest note available. C major Shape 5 the lowest note is G third fret. Highest note would be A fifth fret. Jimmy used to get his students to send him a video of them playing the shapes from the lowest note to highest so, yeah, for that exercise you'd "start" on the G third fret. Of course, C shape 5 for C major is also a D dorian, E Phrygian shape etc but Jimmy's a GAS guy so Dm7-G7-C is just a C major pitch collection.

[Kirk Garrett]

They don't "start" on a particular note - within each shape there's a highest and lowest note available. C major Shape 5 the lowest note is G third fret. Highest note would be A fifth fret. Jimmy used to get his students to send him a video of them playing the shapes from the lowest note to highest so, yeah, for that exercise you'd "start" on the G third fret. Of course, C shape 5 for C major is also a D dorian, E Phrygian shape etc but Jimmy's a GAS guy so Dm7-G7-C is just a C major pitch collection.

OK, instead of saying the shape “starts” on a particular note, I will say that the lowest note in the shape is the one that’s played first, which is not the case in the images earlier posted.

[Christian Miller]

I think this distinction would probably be what Jimmy Bruno was attempting to avoid. The scale or mode starts on whatever note you start on. The example I always think of is Happy Birthday. Starts on the fifth, but isn’t in a mixolydian mode. Theres some utility to think of them from their roots, even when you’re thinking of all the notes below the root in the position too. The UNT way of playing a scale or mode or whatever is to start on the root in the position, play up to the top of the position, down to the bottom of the position, and then back to the root. You could do that for any note in the scale to get the sound of the modes in your ear. It also kind of puts you in the frame of mind that I’d imagine Jimmy is going for with the “pitch collection” phraseology. The scale is a place to locate what you’re looking for, rather than a rigid thing.

Thanks for that little nugget of education info. Interesting context to know.

Also I never got into Jimmy Bruno’s, thing so I have no idea of the timeline. But it’s also possible his terminology changed a bit later. Or it occurred to him to change the notation to better reflect his approach or whatever.

disclaimer: I didn’t go to UNT but my first jazz guitar teacher did and, golly gee, he was a task master.

I never had a regular jazz guitar teacher but I did get a bit of input here and there early on. Otoh I think I was pretty much unteachable - not proud of that.

IIRC I worked the modal fingerings out on a sheet of paper as my parents drove me and my sister to Scotland iirc. I’d just been to my first jazz workshop and didn’t have a clue what people were talking about, but I’d read a couple of guitar magazines, so had an idea about the theory and the root to root thing. I was intrigued by the modes.

I figured it would stick better if I did the working out. I then played them when I got to a guitar (I think I may have tried to sing them too.)

I think that was a good idea, and I would recommend. I’ve never learned much in lectures, I always have to DO. The value of those Jimmy Bruno books etc to me is that you can check and compare.

Later I think I realised that the mode was all context dependent, not fingering dependent, and didn’t really worry about it. But I think the starting on the root thing may have helped me hear them for sure.

These days I wold recommend practicing every scale root to seventh Barry Harris style. It’s like the UNT system but keeps the 1 3 5 7 on the beat so it’s really clear. It’s tailor made for Chord Scale theory ironically haha.

I think guitar positions are too big for many situation, the smaller <1 octave shapes are much more useful for changes playing. I had to relearn scales because the Barry workshops kicked my but so much haha. And you can always hook them up to make bigger scales if needed.

[BreckerFan]

A great way I've found to practice rhythm and technique is transcribing solos and playing along with the record. Record yourself doing it and listen back very critically. It's kinda the same idea as learning heads. If you want to sound like the masters, learn to play what they play.

Also this all seems focused on technique and rhythm for linear playing, but I think learning to comp clear, connected rhythmic ideas is a weak spot for a lot of people (by which I mainly mean myself). Playing along with records can be helpful here too, I like to find horn trio standards albums. Locking in white a rhythm section while comping is a lot more rhythmically demanding than soloing, at least for me.

[pamosmusic]

IIRC I worked the modal fingerings out on a sheet of paper as my parents drove me and my sister to Scotland iirc.

Ha! Mine was "Jazzology" in the back of the van on the way to soccer practice.

These days I wold recommend practicing every scale root to seventh Barry Harris style. It’s like the UNT system but keeps the 1 3 5 7 on the beat so it’s really clear. It’s tailor made for Chord Scale theory ironically haha.

I think guitar positions are too big for many situation, the smaller <1 octave shapes are much more useful for changes playing. I had to relearn scales because the Barry workshops kicked my but so much haha. And you can always hook them up to make bigger scales if needed.

So my first ever guitar teacher was not a jazz dude but was an amazing teacher. He tried to teach me some jazz for a few weeks when I got into it, but gave up and just went really hard on fretboard knowledge stuff and then just gave me ideas of stuff to listen to. Which was way better, for sure.

Anyway .... he taught me the CAGED shapes first, though I don't think he called them that. Then he had these great exercises for bouncing around between them which I still use with students and stuff (one called "hop-scotching" which is brutal). Then three-note-per-string scales. But the thing that clicked the mode stuff together was he gave me this sheet with all these fingerings for one-octave modes. And I diligently practiced them for like ... two days or something maybe, before the lightbulb clicked. Because obviously, any one big pattern contains seven or eight little one-octave modes. Therefore, the one scale is all the scales. All the scales are the one scale. One mode to rule them all, one mode to ...

... I'll stop.

[bediles]

FWIW, the CAGED positions are combinations of 3 string and 4 string octave fingerings (or fractions of them).

[ARGewirtz]

I just viewed Jack Zucker's recent post of a old clip of him playing Donna Lee and replied with a question that is maybe better suited for this string.

I retired about 3 years ago and began learning jazz guitar. I still consider myself a beginner and to my ear I sound like a hack, although my teacher tells me I’m making good progress. My biggest challenge is weening my ear off a lifetime of rock n roll rhythm and timing, and toward being able to replicate something closer to jazz phrasing. For me that’s a more daunting task than learning theory. Seems to me that Donna Lee would be a great teaching tool for someone in my situation, assuming that I take it a modest tempo. What do you think? Does Donna Lee work as a teaching vehicle for a beginner or is it better suited for a more experienced player?