Let's settle Wes's "Cariba" once and for all

[jackalGreen]

Maybe this has all been old hat, and, of course, there's the Steve Khan transcription to work off of.

But with the recent discussion about if a m7 chord is an appropriate tonic, it seems relevant.

My ears are not quite good enough to tell if, for example, in the first chord of the head (mostly played by Wes in full chords) his Fm7 (or Bb7sus4, if you prefer) includes the Eb as the lowest note, or the D natural.

I could go on about if Steve Khan's transcription (no tab, just standard notation) is absolutely accurate, but I'm not qualified to dispute a master, or, rather several masters.

So, I poll the crowd, those who have played this tune.

Might as well also ask if those who play the tune conceive the head as an Fm blues, or a Bb blues using plenty of sus4 chords, which latter is Steve Khan's choice. I personally don't suppose it matters.

But, for me, after tabbing out this tune using Steve Khan's standard notation, and comparing it to the recording, it's really difficult for me to hear that lowest note on the guitar on the I and the IV on this blues....it make the difference between, after all, having a m7 or a m6 (if one accepts Fm as the tonic of the head, which of course then changes for the solo selections).

Running out of steam to suggest all the possibilities, but just curious who else has played this tune at the guitar, and how they ended up "landing" in terms of tiny variations in note choices.

[Christian Miller]

The first chord is a Dm7b5 shape to my ears
x 5 6 5 6 x so D

[jackalGreen]

i hear D natural. x5656x i.e. Bb9

it's a blues in Bb

Yeah, that's my inclination as well.

I just hated to second guess Steve Khan's standard-notation transcription,

The way Khan has it written, it could be easily played xx1111, but as a Bb blues (especially with the turnaround in octaves, from F13 to Eb13), it works fine like that.

I don't know what to make of Khan's published (book-form) transcription...I'm in no position to say he's "wrong," but at least to my ears it's and bog-standard AKG K240s, it is difficult to hear the bottom note in each voicing.

However, it's clear Wes is just using inversions of the same chord for the melody on the I and IV chord...I suppose a bit of fretboard logic is satisfactory to clear that up. I mean, Wes could do anything he wanted, but he was a pretty logical player, almost geometric in sense.


/* edit: although, it is appealing to play the head as an Fm blues, and transition to blowing just on a Bb blues. But, really looking at the actual notes played, I'm inclined to think that's a bit of a stretch, more for the ego of the person "analyzing" a regular blues. */

[Christian Miller]

Even published sources have mistakes. The Omnibook is a classic example.

Transcribe that much material and a few are bound to get through. No one’s going to be checking at the publication stage

That’s why one should do one’s own checking (an ideally transcriptions) … well done in any case…

[Christian Miller]

On other occasions I start hearing something in the music because I think it’s right, look at a chart that has it different say ‘haha that’s wrong’, listen again and realise it’s right…

but I do hear the D there not Eb. It’s subtle.

[jackalGreen]

Even published sources have mistakes. The Omnibook is a classic example.

Oh. Well, you brought it up! Yeah. There are....some problems.....with the Omnibook.

The nice thing about the old pre-royalties Real Book is that everyone *knew* what the problems were (well, they should have!).

Yeah, I'm not going to rag on Steve Khan at all...great composer and player....but to play this tune "Cariba" (at tempo, using the four-note chords, just a bit beyond my dexterity at the fingerboard, but I can still make it sound good by dropping a note here and there)....if it sounds good, it is good.

[ragman1]

[ragman1]

[Christian Miller]

Oh. Well, you brought it up! Yeah. There are....some problems.....with the Omnibook.

The nice thing about the old pre-royalties Real Book is that everyone *knew* what the problems were (well, they should have!).

Well my copy, 5th edition, had an erata, presumably generated by feedback from the community. The charts were the same though and no one ever seemed to have checked it out….

you know people, even well known professional jazz musicians are only human… the problem comes when things are out in print that people might think they are more infallible than they actually are…

[djg]

[princeplanet]

Huh? It sounds like Fm blues to me. Obviously the reason we see the D naturals is because the tonic is Fm6.
Fm6 = Dm7b5 = rootless Bb9. It's so basic, am I must be missing something?

[ragman1]

Missing the point. The OP was discussing the first chord.

My ears are not quite good enough to tell if, for example, in the first chord of the head... includes the Eb as the lowest note, or the D natural.

The point is that the first chord is the same in both transcriptions. Therefore it's far more likely to be Eb than D. Also, frankly, it sounds like Eb :-)

[pamosmusic]

Huh? It sounds like Fm blues to me. Obviously the reason we see the D naturals is because the tonic is Fm6.
Fm6 = Dm7b5 = rootless Bb9. It's so basic, am I must be missing something?

Are we talking about the voicing Wes plays or the chord in the band?

If it’s the latter, I’m hearing Wes play his melody harmonized in m7b5 chords but with an F minor blues in the bass, more or less. Root-Fifth on the F going on in the first four bars, for example

[Christian Miller]

Sounds like a D to me too bra

[pamosmusic]

Also with all due respect but the dude who transcribed this one called it a D# and G# in that voicing so ……. not sure I’m going to take that one as the end all be all.

[ragman1]

It's Eb.

First his G note to test tuning. Then the first chord (repeated).

[grahambop]

Sounds like a D under Wes’ chords to me, then it changes to an Eb under yours. In fact putting them next to each other like that makes it clearer, to my ears.

Listen to the lowest note (at 0:05), it goes up a semitone when you play it (at 0:08).

[pamosmusic]

Sounds like a D under Wes’ chords to me, then it changes to an Eb under yours. In fact putting them next to each other like that makes it clearer, to my ears.

Listen to the lowest note (at 0:05), it goes up a semitone when you play it (at 0:08).

Yeah and also forest for the trees … the other two voicings are very clearly a D natural rather than an Eb. I’m not sure why that first voicing is tougher, maybe the register. Lowest note in the chord but also not the bass note of the overall harmony … not sure.

Anyway … seems pretty clear what the harmony is either way.

[ragman1]

Graham -

Thanks. I'm trying it but it's getting late and my ear's tired.

I'll try it tomorrow when I'm fresh. I do actually want to do this, I'm not trying to be right! I'm quite happy to be wrong. It's fully conceivable that he played xx0111 because it's a lot easier than a first finger bar across all the strings.

Or even Dm7b5 at the 5th.

[pamosmusic]

Graham -

Thanks. I'm trying it but it's getting late and my ear's tired.

I'll try it tomorrow when I'm fresh. I do actually want to do this, I'm not trying to be right! I'm quite happy to be wrong. It's fully conceivable that he played xx0111 because it's a lot easier than a first finger bar across all the strings.

Or even Dm7b5 at the 5th.

Im going to guess Wes probably didn’t play that voicing just because it was easier.

We are talking about the guy who played double time licks with his thumb, after all.

[grahambop]

I just feel the Dm7b5 shape at fifth fret is somehow more typical of Wes, it sounds fuller to me (than playing the first fret version), and if I play with my thumb, I can hit it better there. Also no issue with that open string ringing on, you need these chords to be really tight and punchy.

If I have time, I’ll apply my ear to the first 3 chords properly and see what I come up with. I have that Steve Khan book and I don’t always agree with it. No book should be trusted 100%.

But I don’t think it matters that much, I always felt this tune was cleverly constructed to sound ambiguous, like Wes was exploiting the similarity of Fm and Bb7. I doubt an audience would notice any of these differences we’re discussing.

Pat Martino would just play Fm lines all over it either way. It’s the same thing really.

[ragman1]

I've been doing this for an hour now and I keep getting the same result. If you start with the D then it sounds just fine but if the Eb comes first then you can hear the D fall.

You remember that Laurel/Yanni thing? They tested it on the White House staff. Half of them swore blind it was Laurel and the other half went for Yanni.

What the test had done was extract the pronunciation clip from an online dictionary for the word Laurel. And, as one of the sharper staffers said, of course it's Laurel because what the hell's a Yanni?

It doesn't mean it's definitively right, of course, but here's a vid of someone playing it using xx1111.

[grahambop]

I've put it into Audacity, slowed it down and EQ'd it etc. and this is how I hear the first 3 chords:

x5656x (Bb9 or Fm6)
xx3544 (Bb9 sus or Fm7)
xx6868 (Bb9 sus or Fm7)

Also bear in mind Johnny Griffin is playing a counter melody which adds some other harmonies, I disregarded that. Listening to the bass solo with piano comping, it seems to me the rhythm section were just thinking of it as a blues in Bb, for soloing purposes.

By the way, I had my ears cleaned recently (I was really getting bad hearing loss) and now I can hear a gnat farting at 100 yards! Hadn't realised how bunged up my ears were.

[ragman1]

I've put it into Audacity, slowed it down and EQ'd it etc. and this is how I hear the first 3 chords:

x5656x (Bb9 or Fm6)
xx3544 (Bb9 sus or Fm7)
xx6868 (Bb9 sus or Fm7)

Also bear in mind Johnny Griffin is playing a counter melody which adds some other harmonies, I disregarded that. Listening to the bass solo with piano comping, it seems to me the rhythm section were just thinking of it as a blues in Bb, for soloing purposes.

By the way, I had my ears cleaned recently (I was really getting bad hearing loss) and now I can hear a gnat farting at 100 yards! Hadn't realised how bunged up my ears were.

I'm prone to catarrh and every morning I couldn't hear a thing. But I got the surgery to wash them out a couple of times and it went away. So I can sympathise with that.

I'm not so sure about the other stuff :-)

Tell you what, watching that video looks like playing it is more trouble than it's worth. Talk about hard work.

[ragman1]

What we need is a fillum of Wes doing it live.