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I've learned them over many years - since around 1971. Mostly through playing upright and GJ guitar. Built up my own fake book. Never used a tablet!
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10-19-2023 11:41 AM
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Having a tablet sure is a stigma. You look like a beginner if you have one. Not sure what to say about that. Maybe I should write the tunes down in a book that looks like it fell of a pirate ship.
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Spoke w a pro jazz guitarist today who knows a lot of tunes. He said he doesn't know them all, but if he's at a gig and someone calls a standard he doesn't know, he can listen through the head and know every chord after only one time through the head. So if a horn player is playing the head he can just jump in on the 2nd chorus. If it's a really hard tune or some modern tune with weird chords it might take 2-3 times through to get it.
That would be the skill that puts this whole problem to rest.
I probably should take an ear training course of some kind.
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Yes, I learned a bunch of tunes in lockdown in 2020 that I can’t remember for instance. But you lose what you don’t play, or at least I do. The way to look at it is that you are working on your tune learning chops… the more you do it the easier it becomes.
The hardest bit for me is retaining the melody. Especially the B section. That takes care and attention.
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Ear Training, shmear training, work on music!
Originally Posted by JazzIsGood
(maybe it helps)
But yes, I think that’s it.
it’s not about what tunes you learn… I learned a bunch of tunes in lockdown in 2020 that I can’t remember for instance. you lose what you don’t play, or at least I do.
It’s about how good you get at learning them… The way to look at it is that you are working on your tune learning chops… the more you do it the easier it becomes. Relearning a tune as you play it on a gig becomes possible, as does learning a tunes chords by listening to a chorus or two, as you say.
Aural memory in my experience is very robust and long lasting, unlike physical memory.
The hardest bit for me with standards is retaining the melody. Especially the B section. That takes a lot of care and attention. It also has nothing to do with actually playing the guitar. Lyrics help.
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I started keeping a spreadsheet, now up to 84 standards. Listed Alphabetically. Every time I finish the song straight through, without error, I wrote an X next to he song. Each song will eventually have 100 X’s on it or some high figure like that. That’s when I know I have the tune down, including lyrics.
Form can be picked up later, after melody and lyrics. Everything starts with melody and lyrics. Have to have them down stone cold.
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Standard disclaimer: not really a jazz guitarist, certainly not pro level.
Nevertheless, my untutored and unsystematic experience:
Learning tunes means listening to tunes. Learning in order to play (or play along with) them means playing along. I'm sure that there are all kinds of arguments in favor of practice/acquisition regimens that serve that end, perhaps rooted in the kind of classical-style ear-training (which I've only read about) where you learn to hear intervals and identify chords and such. And I don't doubt that they can add value.
But what I noticed when I was getting up to speed with the jazz group that let me sit in for several years was that 1) I was already familiar with almost all of the standards and recognized a lot of the bop and straight-ahead material; 2) with the aid of a Real Book chart I could absorb the changes of tunes I'd often heard but never played; 3) I have a lousy ear for identifying the key of tune but a decent one for the common kinds of changes; 4) knowing the words for standards is a good way of staying oriented in the form.
I'm pretty sure that even though I'm pretty much untutored in the underlying music theory and practice, I survived as long as I did thanks to a literal lifetime of listening to the music (I was over 70 when I started sitting in), as well as a couple of decades of learning how to pay attention to what my (non-jazz) playing partners were doing on the bandstand. I can often make sense of an unfamiliar (and not-too-gnarly) tune during a performance--though usually the penny doesn't drop until halfway through the last chorus. And when I thought a tune might be called again (or caught my fancy), I might do a bit of familiarization at home. I suppose that counts as practice, though I'm not terribly disciplined.
When I work up material for non-jazz performing, I dig up as many versions of a tune as I can, partly out of curiosity and partly to see what various artists have done with it. I assembled a whole CD of performances of "Spring Can Really Hang You Up the Most" that is revelatory. (One thing it revealed is that I'll never manage a non-embarrassing performance. Too bad--great song. I had much better luck with "I Can't Believe that You're in Love with Me.") There's nothing technical or systematic about this approach--it's just repeated listening and absorption.Last edited by RLetson; 10-24-2023 at 02:04 PM.
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His ear is good cause he knows a bunch of tunes. Along with knowing your intervals, chords, and functional/tendencies, familiarity is part of the developed ear. Just emphasizing that you should just learn tunes like others have said. Originally Posted by JazzIsGood
don't worry about blue bossa, shite tune :P
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It's going pretty good. I've working on 3 tunes per day. Some are new, and I'm also firming up the old ones I haven't played in a while. I'm not learning them super thorough, but I'm trying to keep the number of tunes I'm learning per day high so I develop that ear and the ability to predict chords and know them quickly.
I'm starting with full records where it's all standards and it's a record I've known for years. I'm not learning any tunes I don't know the sound of. I can hum every melody before I pick up the guitar. I won't run out of records for a long time. Seems like that is the way to do it.
I'm up over 90 tunes now. After I'm done firming up the old ones I think the number will jump a lot faster. I'm firming up some tunes that are kinda hard, of course the hard ones need more work. this is slowing it down but ultimately they have to sound good, it's not all about just having a high number of tunes. Airegin has been tough to get solid and the outro of Night in Tunisia is slow going too.
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I don't know if the comment about Blue Bossa was a joke, but I'll add this.
Blue Bossa isn't even a bossa.
But, as much as you may dislike the tune, it's one of a handful you absolutely must know for jam situations.
It gets called because it's one everybody is expected to know. Players will look at you funny if you don't know it.
Two nights ago I sat in on a gig with some guys I'd just met (interesting story I'll tell some other time) and not only did they call Blue Bossa, but they expected me to play the melody. I don't know as many tunes as I should, but, fortunately, I can play that one in any key.
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I know it, but I've been told it's a shite tune...
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I don't have the goal to learn very many tunes but got about 50 that take a minute to revive.
So, when wanting to learn 300, I would learn them well the first time.. Then forget.
Then after a week, would just try to recall and relearn. And so on. Every day learn a few very well,
and then try to recall a bunch of old ones. When in trouble, check the paper but that's just a short glimpse.
The forget and recall part is what does the magic. But keeping 300 tunes "active" and "ready".... ugh!.. takes decades?
I have a few classical tunes that I've been forgetting and relearning for 20 years.
Each time when I pick something forgotten up again, it gets easier.
Just have to wake up the "finger memory" and it is back again.
Then it sounds a bit clumsy but memory-wise it's like the 2-5 year break never happened.
The key with those was that I learned them really really well the first time.
So, it works with that genre also.
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I like Blue Bossa.
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Y’all learn tunes fast.
Usually it’s at least a few days for me to get one. And usually it takes a few visits to really stick.
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Me too. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
I think the knock is that it’s usually thrown at beginners so it’s played too often and usually not terribly well.
Kenny Dorham and Joe Henderson don’t generally fool with “shite.”
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Same thing with Brown Eyed Girl and Mustang Sally. They totally slay if anyone takes the time to learn the parts. Brown Eyed Girl is basically a 3 minute double stop etude, but Joe Halfass will strum 3 chords and talk about how boring it is. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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300 tunes?
LOL.
In a few years, when you're a professional. Maybe.
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Sick em rag.
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What, again?
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I have learned many more than 300 tunes over the years, but I don’t seem to be able to retain more than a dozen or so for any length of time. Maintaining repertoire is at least as big a problem as acquiring it in the first place. On the other hand, it becomes easier over time to relearn lost tunes when needed.
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
Ha, I thought trolls were solitary beasts Originally Posted by ragman1
What, again?
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Probably not playing them live or jamming, I guess? Or not getting away from the page. Originally Posted by pcjazz
When there's no consequences to not remembering something, you don't.
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I bet most people who have 300 of them in their sleeve don't ever think and never thought about such question.
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People like Hal Galper and Bruce Forman have realised that there are not really so many variations in the changes of the GASB. The best systematic breakdown I know of those typical harmonic 8 bar phrases (about 30 or so IIRC) is in French jazz researcher and musicians Philippe Baudoin's book "Jazz - Mode d'Emploi". IIRC it is in volume 1 of 2 and I think one might be able to understand those respective chapters even w/o knowledge of the French language. Originally Posted by emanresu
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This stuff was just stuff that everyone picked up back in the days when there were lots of gigs. Working players of that gen just knew this stuff. Originally Posted by Bop Head
These days people are taught this info as a way to learn tunes. Originally I get the impression that the knowledge came from learning lots of tunes.
The main English language books that spring to mind are Harmony with Lego Bricks (Cork) and Hearin’ the Changes (Coker)
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