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The premise doesn't work. I would never limit an audition to one tune, and I can't imagine any scenario where I'd have to. I'd want to hear how the person sounds on a few tunes that are representative of what the band plays and would allow me to gauge how s/he interacts with other players. Maybe it's worth talking about what ballad playing vs up-tempo jazz standard playing can reveal about people's musicianship, but an audition is practical thing with a specific purpose, not a gedenken experiment.
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08-29-2023 01:07 PM
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What some of you are writing in your posts here I actually see as an error many musicians make. That is, they choose to jam with their buddy, pal, cohorts rather than finding the best, most gifted musicians they can find. Then they wonder why the best gig they can get is at the local park?
When a large venue, interested in their bottom line, is deciding what band to hire, they don't care that the guitar player was best man at your wedding, or that the bass player is your fave drinking buddy. They're going to hire the band that sounds best, and that can woo an audience.
From the posts here, most of you would have passed in choosing Prince to be in your band, because he was a little ,"weird" and could be difficult to work with at times. Interviews from members of the Revolution actually attest to that. He had some "ways" that would irk his bandmates, but, he was the best musician in the band, a super gifted musician and songwriter, so they stuck with him and became very succesful.
That was actually a big part of the story line of the movie Purple Rain, that Prince was very much "different," (he definitely was), some might even say "weird," and he was NOT the easiest guy to work with, but he was super gifted as a musician, performer, and writer.
Remember how he was pissing off his bandmates and the club owner with his antics onstage in the movie? He was even walking off stage and showing up really late to band practice sessions? But when he got on stage he was the best, by a wide margin, and had the crowds mesmerised, so he got the gig and made it BIG.
For my band, give me that guy, like Prince, the best, most creative, gifted musician. If he's a little eccentric/"weird", hey, the most gifted musicians often are that. Or havent you noticed? If he, or she, has that special talent along with it, give me that guy, because I have that drive to be successful as a musician, not gigging with my best bud at the local park or bar. You can have that gig.
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I mean. Okay? I’m not really sure what we’re talking about here. It was a hypothetical question, no?
If it’s a serious practical question, then point blank, standards gigs don’t support auditions and rehearsals. A big market has loads of musicians who won’t need to rehearse for that gig; and a small market probably isn’t paying enough to have two hour rehearsals before the gig.
A venue interested in their bottom line also is going to hire the bandleader who doesn’t need to be compensated for rehearsing his whole band extensively. If you’re requiring auditions and rehearsals, then hopefully you’re paying musicians for that time. If you’re paying musicians for that time, then you’re passing that cost along to the venue and the venue probably isn’t going to be inclined to pay it. I can play three (or ten) hours of jazz standards without requiring rehearsals, so I just got the gig.
Reg will probably be along soon to talk about sight reading with big bands.
If we’re talking about a rock band playing the Brooklyn Bowl that’s a different gig, but given that the question referenced Oleo and ballads and this is a jazz guitar forum, i think most folks are assuming we’re talking about a jazz gig.
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You live on what seems to be a very interesting planet. Thank you for visiting Earth. Perhaps one day we will hear what the music from your world sounds like.
Originally Posted by James Haze
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A midtempo blues.
Because if you can't do that, we can't be friends.
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Jazz gig, rock gig, whatever, it's still just a gig. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
As a bandleader, I would never pay musicians for rehearsals, never. People love to talk about the importance of investing. The band rehearsals are the musicians INVESTING in themselves, and the musical product, to be the best, and thus get biggest ROI possible. A shame some musicians don't get that.
I suppose that's part in parcel of why so many musicians don't actually end up making a lot if money from their music.
And personally, I'm not a fan of big band music. That's a different thing from a small ensemble. Getting together a whole orchestra for rehearsals is more if a logistical feat. Think about it.
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You are contradicting yourself a lot here...If you think people shouldn't just play with their buddies, I'd like to know who these pros are for hire who will work for free. Originally Posted by James Haze
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Philosophical difference on this one. Originally Posted by James Haze
Paying for rehearsals is a bandleader investing in his or project. If the bandleader doesn’t invest, then why would I?
EDIT: When I was in New York I had a bunch of gigs in my neighborhood that I’d hustled to put together. In the beginning they wouldn’t fork over much money and I lived wayyyyy out in deep Brooklyn. So to get people to make the hike, I had to split my cut between the bass and drums and do it pro bono myself, but eventually we got it together and I managed to squeeze more money out of them and pay myself.
As a bandleader I am the only one I am comfortable asking to invest in my own project.
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Maybe the Imaginary Artist Soon-to-be Known As Prince will take the gig. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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The OP asked about auditioning band members, not finding a one night stand. I don't think a half hour of anyone's time is too much to ask from someone who's looking to join a working band with a long standing reputation. And before I'd make anyone a formal member of my band, he or she would have to play at least one real gig with us no matter how well the audition went. You just don't know what will arrive when the chips are down. Some of the best musicians I know are either unreliable or otherwise a problem on gigs despite being great players and even good friends of mine. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
I once booked a very well known local keyboard player for a big fraternity party on the University of Pennsylvania campus. I'd played with him several times, and I knew he had a spotty reputation because he was sometimes late, inappropriately dressed, etc. But it was a late booking, I couldn't get any of my regular sidemen, and it was only a fraternity party. He showed up, high as a kite, with his keyboard but no amplifier. He'd already set up the keyboard on its stand and was sitting at it when I noticed - so asked where his amplifier was. "Hey, man - I don't need an amp. It'll be OK". I had to send him home, and we got through the night fine as a power trio.
A local guitar player who somehow gets gigs despite his disheveled appearance and marginal playing has been hired by a few local bands over the years. At least 1 in 4 times that I encounter him, he smells so bad that I can't imagine having any association with him at all, let alone being next to him on a stage for a few hours.
For a duo (a possibility per the OP), it's even more critical than for a bigger ensemble. If you're up there with just one other player, you're completely dependent on him or her for a quality show. As for reputations being made by who you recommend, that's only true after the fact. Those social media posts come in real time, often from the audience during the show. Like Elmore said, when things go wrong for you...
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If I thought it was a hypothetical question, I wouldn't have taken the time to answer it. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Zoinks. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
The OP asked about auditioning band members, not finding a one night stand. I don't think a half hour of anyone's time is too much to ask from someone who's looking to join a working band with a long standing reputation. And before I'd make anyone a formal member of my band, he or she would have to play at least one real gig with us no matter how well the audition went. You just don't know what will arrive when the chips are down. Some of the best musicians I know are either unreliable or otherwise a problem on gigs despite being great players and even good friends of mine.
I once booked a very well known local keyboard player for a big fraternity party on the University of Pennsylvania campus. I'd played with him several times, and I knew he had a spotty reputation because he was sometimes late, inappropriately dressed, etc. But it was a late booking, I couldn't get any of my regular sidemen, and it was only a fraternity party. He showed up, high as a kite, with his keyboard but no amplifier. He'd already set up the keyboard on its stand and was sitting at it when I noticed - so asked where his amplifier was. "Hey, man - I don't need an amp. It'll be OK". I had to send him home, and we got through the night fine as a power trio.
A local guitar player who somehow gets gigs despite his disheveled appearance and marginal playing has been hired by a few local bands over the years. At least 1 in 4 times that I encounter him, he smells so bad that I can't imagine having any association with him at all, let alone being next to him on a stage for a few hours.
For a duo (a possibility per the OP), it's even more critical than for a bigger ensemble. If you're up there with just one other player, you're completely dependent on him or her for a quality show. As for reputations being made by who you recommend, that's only true after the fact. Those social media posts come in real time, often from the audience during the show. Like Elmore said, when things go wrong for you...
Well musicians tend to be a spotty bunch.
Anyway — I appreciate folks who take their stuff seriously so I get where you’re coming from.
I think I just take it to a different conclusion.
For what it’s worth I also have a lot of musician friends I could call for anything any time and they’re friendships. We met playing gigs and sort of developed relationships from there. So the goal is still not a one gig thing. The goal is a long term relationship, but they’ve taken a very different track in my experience than the one you’re describing.
And in some markets, a half hour actually kind of is too much to ask. But assuming it’s not, I think that still depends on my band’s reputation. If it’s that good, then a person might make an exception. If people won’t make an exception, the my band might not have the reputation I thought and I might need to flip the way I’m thinking about things.
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For what it’s worth, it also kind of sounds like you’re talking about an event band or something. Playing arrangements at big parties and whatnot. That’s also a different thing. Usually longer gigs, more logistical demands, and much higher pay. Different ballgame than a standards gig.
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And I guess as sort of an analog to your stories about unreliable musicians, my first gig in New York waS with kind of a period swing group and the gig paid great. But the singer wanted rehearsals because I hadn’t played with them before. I showed up and it was a three hour rehearsal where she was basically learning her lyrics. Cut my pay rate in half. The next gig she canceled day of. I didn’t take the gig again.
I hate to say it but unreliable bandleaders are almost as common as unreliable musicians. The fact of the matter is that either the band leader is taking a risk by hiring musicians or the musician is taking a risk by committing unpaid time. For me, the band leader is responsible for the risk. Their band; their risk. Full stop.
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Around here, I've never heard of anybody formally auditioning for a group. Maybe for touring bands? Not for the usual bar, restaurant and small concert gigs that I know about. Could be that I'm not getting those invitations, but I've never even heard stories about that for local gigs.
The bandleaders know lots of musicians. If the gig pays decently, they have their choice among people they already know. In fact, if the gig doesn't pay decently, but there's something interesting about it, lots of very good players may take it.
But, there's an exception. If a booker, or maybe a musician, wants to check you, or your band, out, they come to one of your gigs. Or they invite you to sit in on one of their gigs or rand see how you do. I've had those things happen.
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I’m talking about any band that’s in it for the long haul and playing for paying audiences. I played with large musical organizations (multiple leaders, dozens of top sidemen, high paying society and commercial gigs) for years. I know the difference. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
My current jazz group has a core trio (g,b,d) plus keys and tenor when needed. I’ve been gigging with the bass player for about 30 years, the drummer for 16, the tenor for 20 and the keyboard for at least 10. All of my subs have been friends and fellow sidemen in other bands (many from the above-mentioned organizations) for anywhere from 10 to 40 years. My trio has played a regular Thursday night gig at a local club since 2016 IIRC, and my blues band has played at least once a week for about 20 years. This week, I have jazz gigs Thursday, Friday and Saturday plus a blues brunch on Sunday.
There are many great players out there. I’m fine with someone I don’t know who has a good reputation with people I do know. But I wouldn’t make anyone a member of a band that carries my name without the effort I already described unless I’ve played with them and observed them on a gig.
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Yeah this process sounds more familiar. We’re probably working with a false construct here, starting with the OP. Auditions aren’t that common in this milieu. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
I guess an important piece of information I didn’t include is how many people’s recommendations I trust. More than a few, but certainly not a lot. The reverse is that if someone I trusted told me to take the time to go audition for a local band they knew, or invest time in a rehearsing band, and they said it would be worth it, I’d probably trust them on that point too. Hasn’t happened yet, though.
Anyway. Different strokes. I’ve hired lots of people for different things and they all worked out okay. I can think of two who I struck from the list, mostly because they weren’t pleasant to work with. And then after a while I settled into a routine of calling two or three bass players and two or three drummers. I guess experience taught me to be fine with it. I may yet get burned. Your experience taught you different.
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Back in the day, auditions were mandatory for any decent band. But the only bad audition experience I ever had was when I joined Local 77 (Philly) of the AFM back in 1969. An audition was required to get in, so I dressed up and went down to the union hall with guitar and amp. I was auditioning on both guitar and piano - they wouldn't list multiple instruments in the membership directory unless you auditioned on them all. I sat on the bench in the hall waiting for about 2 hours past my scheduled time, and no one came or went while I sat there. Finally, I was called into a room with 2 union guys in it and told to sit at the piano and play something. I played about 3 notes and they both said "That's fine - you're in." Originally Posted by pamosmusic
I probably should have just left, but I couldn't resist asking if they wanted to hear me play the guitar too. They told me that it wasn't necessary because the main purpose of the audition was to make sure that applicants looked and acted professionally
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
What I'll say to you on this subject, is that some people think big and some people think small. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
If people aren't willing to pay you for for your project, then me personally, I would not want to work on your project period, unless, you were a completely brand new artist, with no track record with club owbers, just starting out.
Me personally, I'm not going to work on a project unless I feel it is one that has the potential to really draw some crowds, so that the musicians can make a decent living.
You see, I know I'm good, really good, and I HAVE PUT IN A LOT OF WORK TO GET THAT GOOD, AND, I respect myself as a man and as a musician. I'm also for artists and for the arts in general, BIG TIME. I'm saying I have a good attitude like this, " this is a value added thing for you buddy (Mr. club owner/Mgr), if you get my band playing here, we're going to put butts in the seats for you, but the musicians have to get PAID, and not treated like garbage."
Maybe you'll put up with you and your work being treated like garbage by working for peanuts, but I won't. Like I said, I know I'm good, really good, and I know my worth.
Maybe your project isn't good enough, or you don't believe it's good enough to warrant being treated with respect? I don't know, because I've never heard your music. I would very much like to hear it, though.
You want to talk about responsibility as a bandleader? As a band leader I take it upon myself as my responsibility to #1, make sure that our musical output is exceptionally good, excellent, I mean EXCELLENT. Now that we've got that, I take it as my responsibility as bandleader to make sure we have gigs and that the musicians are getting PAID, and PAID well. I make sure that we are RESPECTED where we perform. That means being treated well and getting PAID well.
Maybe, if you fancy yourself as a good bandleader, that is an area of your bandleader skills that you need to work on?
For that, for what I offer, when I say we need to practice together on these few days, the guys better find a way to get their asses and their instruments there, and not complain about it, or I will find another musician who wants to get PAID some real money for being a gifted, well practiced, artist. I'm not one to sit around and let my band be treated disrespectfully because we're artists. As a bandleader, I won't allow THAT!
If we as artists don't stand up for ourselves, then who is going to do it?Last edited by James Haze; 08-29-2023 at 07:02 PM.
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Haha. I mean … I wouldn’t toot my own horn the same way, I guess, but these are all really good reasons that I might cite when telling you I’d like to be paid to attend your rehearsal. Originally Posted by James Haze
If you’re that good and that sure you’ll be making money, it shouldn’t be a problem. If it’s a problem … well, then I guess that’s the answer.
At the end of those neighborhood gigs, I was making money and I had a great contact list I used when I had dates in the city. Worth the investment but it was my investment to make. Not theirs. So they got paid.
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Whatever, then, I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree. Yes, I will promote my music by the way, because I really believe in myself and my artistry. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
You can pay your guys some pittance for a rehearsal, and let your band be disrespected at gigs if you chose. On the other hand, I make sure my band is excellent, has gigs, and that we get respected; that means getting PAID well for performing. If I was a hungry musician, I know which one I would choose, but hey, to each his own.
Now I'm done with this conversation, because I have better things to do than to waste time arguing with musicians who don't believe in themselves, and who aren't avid supporters of the arts.
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You know what, there’s a guy who talks just like you at the jazz jam I run. Only, I’m the one with the gig and he’s the one waiting for a turn to come up and play with my band. Originally Posted by James Haze
But he’s adamant that he could fill the place up.
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Awkward. You might have a tough time getting people to agree that their time is less valuable than yours though. Originally Posted by James Haze
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What are you talking about? No one was paying me for the rehearsal session, either, so we are all the same in that respect. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Just out of curiosity, how much do you pay for a rehearsal session?
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Good one. How well a guy can play a blues can tell you a lot about a player. You got to be able to play some blues man, you've just got to. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
We can be friends, though, LOL, but you can't be in my band if you can't play some blues.
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