Learning By Ear: Sugar - Stanley Turrentine

**AllanAllen** · 08-25-2023, 10:07 AM

Still learning songs by ear and being completely surprised when I open the realbook. Sugar seems very simple by ear, but the RB has some wacky things in it. Least of all the Ab7 which is NOT in the head, sure, Ron Plays it once or twice at the end, but that should be considered a sub, not the changes right? Also that Db maj 7 in the end, I don't hear that.

The RB lead sheet is attached for reference, iReal is even more complex, and I'm not even going there.

I don't need a thread about bending theory to force the RB to be right, I want to know what you guys hear and what you play on the gig.

Intro: C-7 | Dm7b5 G7b9 ||

Changes I hear

|C-7 | Dm7b5 G7b9 | C-7 | C-7|
|C-7 | Dm7b5 | G7 | G7|
|C-7 | F- | Eb | Dm7b5|
|G7#5 | Dm7b5 | G7#5 | C-7|

**AllanAllen** · 08-25-2023, 10:08 AM

The sheet

**Reg** · 08-25-2023, 11:15 AM

Yea... I like the version from 74...

Into.... Csus to G7alt.

l C-7 l G7alt l C-7 l G7alt l
l C-7 l C-7 D7alt l G7sus l G7alt l
l C-7 l Gb13#11 l F-7 l Eb9 l .... (the Gb13 could be thought of C7alt or V7 of F-)
D-7b5 l G7alt l Ab13 l Ab13 l

And typically during solo sections.... it develops harmonically. (standard simple stuff)

I actually was at berklee in 73/74 and was helping with transcribing. I worked in ensemble office etc... The 1st version RB wasn't called Real Book yet, anyway... pre real book version was...

l C-7 A-7b5 l D-7b5 G7+7 l C-9.......... l G+7 l
l C-7 ....... l C-7 A-7b5 l D-9 .........l G+7 l
l C-9 .........l C-9 ............. l F-9..........l Eb13l
lD-7 b5 .... l G+7 ............l1) Ab7#11 l G+7 ll 2) C-9 l Dbmaj7 ll

**AllanAllen** · 08-25-2023, 01:58 PM

Yea... I like the version from 74...

Are you talking about the realbook or a recording of the song Sugar?

**djg** · 08-25-2023, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by AllanAllen

Least of all the Ab7 which is NOT in the head, sure,|

you cant hear the Ab7 in bar 15?? listen harder.

**AllanAllen** · 08-25-2023, 04:10 PM

Nope. The more I try the more I hearing the last four as G7 to F- to E9 to C-

The bass is clear as day to me.

**AllanAllen** · 08-25-2023, 05:19 PM

I think I got twisted around with what is where with the YouTube 10 seconds skip.

I’ll try again after the kids are asleep.

**Reg** · 08-25-2023, 07:21 PM

Yea the 1974 version is from Takashi Mizuhashi quartet in 1974 . I'm a west coast guy... and knew Chuck Sher and a bunch of other north bay jazz players years ago.

But how many times have you seen Stanley or other CTI or later jazz touring player perform Sugar... Back then we played 5 or 6 nights in a row at clubs a lot of the time..... The tunes would evolve. I mean.... even nowadays, who knows where it might go. It wouldn't be the same changes over and over.... that's for sure.

That "was" the nature of playing jazz live.... it's wasn't a rehearsed show or musical union gig. You may or may not get a list of tunes ahead of time.... the 1st set was for getting dialed in... the rest was fun etc...

Sugars just a 16 bar min blues basically. Two 8 bar sections There just isn't that much to figure out.. Yea... hang a little longer on the C- in bar 6... and bars 7 and 8 need some movement to set up the 2nd 8 bars. And yea... the IV is early etc... you need to fix the last 4 bars needs to be some kind of turn around.

**djg** · 08-25-2023, 07:49 PM

Originally Posted by Reg

Yea the 1974 version is from Takashi Mizuhashi quartet in 1974

wow.never heard of those guys. sax player is channelling turrentine so much it's actually creepy

interesting recording,

**pamosmusic** · 08-25-2023, 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by Reg

The tunes would evolve. I mean.... even nowadays, who knows where it might go. It wouldn't be the same changes over and over.... that's for sure.

Yeah this is a big Pete Bernstein thing I got kind of second hand from a buddy who studied with him for a while. Learning the changes but also focusing on the function. Lots of ways to get back to a tonic chord.

Makes me think it would be a good idea to transcribe the changes to a tune at like …. The eighth chorus or something.

**AllanAllen** · 08-25-2023, 08:00 PM

I get it that the changes aren’t static, but you have to know the changes before you can play around with them right? I don’t have the decades of experience you do.

I’ve got 3 years of bedroom shedding and have played 3 gigs. Lower your expectations

**pamosmusic** · 08-25-2023, 10:50 PM

Originally Posted by AllanAllen

I get it that the changes aren’t static, but you have to know the changes before you can play around with them right? I don’t have the decades of experience you do.

I’ve got 3 years of bedroom shedding and have played 3 gigs. Lower your expectations

Totally. I think Reg was probably just saying the Real Book changes on most tunes are just a common set of changes. Sounds like in this specific case you might’ve mixed something up, but other times you might be hearing exactly what’s there and it just might be different than the Real Book.

As for me … I was just rambling. Free association off what he said. Don’t mind me.

Either it seems like you got pretty darned close.

**pingu** · 08-26-2023, 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by AllanAllen;[URL="tel:1283018"

1283018[/URL]]I get it that the changes aren’t static, but you have to know the changes before you can play around with them right? I don’t have the decades of experience you do.

I’ve got 3 years of bedroom shedding and have played 3 gigs. Lower your expectations

You’ve got it Allen ….
yes that’s right
it’s the way the changes function
thats important

bars 1&2 tonic minor
bars (3&)4 some kind of turnaround
(a minor 2 5 in the RB changes)
to get you to ….
bars 5 & 6 tonic minor
bars 7 & 8 some kinda turnaround
to get you to
bar 9 tonic minor
now bars 10 11 & 12 has the descending feel that (for me)
must be there (in the head at least)
to make it Sugar

roots of some kinda chords on
b5 then 4 then b3
then of course in bar 13
the ii follows the descending line
nicely
bar 14 a V sound

then a surprise !
bar 15 not a tonic minor
(back home sound) here
but an ‘away’ sound

bar 16 some kinda V sound

so some parts of this tune you can
mess with (eg first 8 bars)
bars 9 - 12 are distinctive so don’t
mess with em too much at least
when playing the head in and out

bars 15 being ‘away’ from the tonic
is (for me ) important too

but there’s no right way to play
jazz , that’s just my view of Sugar today , it could change

it’s a process , have at it

**AllanAllen** · 08-26-2023, 10:16 AM

I’m glad we have YouTube. The version Reg recommended is great.

**Reg** · 08-27-2023, 11:40 AM

Yea Allan.... it's all good.

It's a really good idea to learn about FORM before you start learning actual songs.... at least while your learning songs. ( really makes it easy to remember tunes also)

It will make the process much easier... and help you understand why chords are where they are.

Form is pretty simple and kind of makes the pieces fall into place.

Sugar is 16 bar Min. Blues, two 8 bar statements.

**Reg** · 08-27-2023, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by djg

wow.never heard of those guys. sax player is channelling turrentine so much it's actually creepy

interesting recording,

LOL.... yea, when I was at Berklee... in early 70's there were a lot of great Japanese players and lot of friends would tour in Japan.... lots of work etc... anyway open my ears to Japan.

Still have friends who live and work there... (good players)

**ragman1** · 08-27-2023, 10:50 PM

Allan -

I don't know, there's so much variation on this forum, I despair sometimes. I hesitate to say anything because it just disappears into the rest of the soup and becomes just another doubtful opinion.

So far, for the G7s we've had G7, G7sus, G7b9, G7#5 and G7b5. Brilliant. Not.

Then Fm or Fm7. Or Fm9. And you've written Eb where it needs to be an Eb7. Or even Eb9. Then there's that Ab7 at the end. Or is it Ab7/G7? Or Ab13/G7#5? Or is it Absus? Or two bars of Ab7, or Ab13... and is there a DM7 and, if so, when?

For what it's worth, the Turrentine version fades out at the end. You can't hear the DbM7 because it's not there.

I'm playing it like this because they do. Here it is over the album version.

Cm7 - Dø/G7#5 - Cm7 - G7#5
Cm7 - % - Dø - G7#5
Cm7 - Gb13 - Fm7(9) - Eb9
Dø - G7#5 - Ab13 - %

But the real point is the soloing, isn't it? It's got that hard swing. Much more important than the chords which you can play how you like. Make it your own!

**AllanAllen** · 08-28-2023, 08:52 AM

I’m actually getting more in line with Reg that the real point is the chords. When I play a gig I only solo like 25% of the time. If I half know the changes it makes the other 75% very painful.

However, if you know enough of the melody you can do a passable solo over anything.

**pamosmusic** · 08-28-2023, 08:57 AM

Originally Posted by AllanAllen

I’m actually getting more in line with Reg that the real point is the chords. When I play a gig I only solo like 25% of the time. If I half know the changes it makes the other 75% very painful.

However, if you know enough of the melody you can do a passable solo over anything.

And if you know the chords, it can be quite a bit more than passable.

**ragman1** · 08-28-2023, 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by AllanAllen

I’m actually getting more in line with Reg that the real point is the chords. When I play a gig I only solo like 25% of the time. If I half know the changes it makes the other 75% very painful.

However, if you know enough of the melody you can do a passable solo over anything.

I understand, but as you get more experienced you can afford to relax and follow your own instincts and ideas. You'll see.

(Not that there's anything wrong with the chords as they stand, of course, that's not the point).

**fep** · 08-28-2023, 11:50 AM

Very informative thread. From what has been written on this thread I'll conclude often one can't say the RB is incorrect unless you have the inside scoop. In this case we do, that would be Reg.

So many variations of a tune exist, who's to say if there is a definitive version or not.