Summer Samba changes

[pingu]

In F

bars 3 &4
what are you guys thinking here ?

1 a 2 5 to Amin or A ?
(emphasizing the E7+)

2 stay in F maj ?

3 something else entirely ?

nothing I try is totally satisfactory
can you help ?

thanks in advance

[Christian Miller]

I’ve always just read the tune on gigs, tbh, hadn’t really learned it or looked at it till now.

Here’s a thing - look at the melody.



We have an Am arp on F maj with an added prominent D - an a minor pentatonic/blues thing really - quite normal

but we have the same figure over the Bm7 which suggests more of a Bm phrygian tonality, which is probably why looking at it as a ii chord is not satisfying. It’s an unusual Bm7

We then descend the A to Ab to get an G#+ on E7, before a Dm triad on Bb

thats all interesting, and I would probably think about exploring those sounds once I’d got used to outlining the basic chord tones

How about Am pent on Fmaj7, Bm7, Am pent with the 1 lowered to G# on E7, Dm pent on Bb?

tbh I’m not sure about the whole scale, just playing around with the melody notes works best. The D is very important, it’s a real harmonic fulcrum.

[AllanAllen]

After going to a few jams and being totally lost with my esoteric changes from whatever version of summertime moved me. I asked the house band what changes they used. “Everyone uses iReal now.”

Based on that I’d do a ii V heading to A because that’s what the band is going to play weather I go there or not.

My goals might not align with yours.

[Christian Miller]

Play A over Bb - Bbmaj7#9 baby haha

Yeah iReal doesn’t give the melody. The idea of melody being important to the songs harmony is clearly dying off. At least the real book had melodies in it. Otoh a lead sheet is but a Google search away.

And yes I’ve used that very chart on gigs, I admit it. I just forget to learn that tune (which gets called a lot). And every time I’d play a bop II V there, which works but doesn’t really relate to the song.

But now I’ve taken a glance at it, there’s a bit more to it….

[rpjazzguitar]

According to Chediak's book, the composer's changes were:

F^7 F6 Bm7 E7b9
Bb^7 Bb6 Bbm6 Eb9
Am7 D7b9 Gm7 (1st ending) Em9-A7b13
Dm7 G13-G7b13 Gm7 Db9-C9

(2nd ending) C7b9 F6 Bb9 F6.

And the chart doesn't specify a final turnaround.

Bars 3 and 4 represent a fairly common move from a major to a variant of the dominant a half step below. Jobim's Red Blouse is another example, going from F^7 to Ealt. Rapaz De Bem goes from F^7 to Bb7#11. In these two cases, one way to think about the second chord is that it's in F melodic minor (and, per Mark Levine, they're the same chord).

In the case of Summer Samba, that might work for the E7b9 in bar 4, but not so well for the Bm7, which I am inclined to see as a kind of iim for the E7b9. It works in the head because the melody is the same in the first 3 bars, creating some bitonality in bar 3. That gets resolved with the G# at the start of bar 4.

Lots of options to solo over it. For bars 1 and 2, if the guitar stayed on Am, the bassist would turn it into F^7. For bar 3, the bassist would turn Am into Am/B. Or, you could notice that the note G works in bar 2 (F^9), then goes down a half step to the F# in Bm7 and down another half step to the F in E7b9.

So you have chord tones for Bm7, B D F# A, but what else? Let's take it one note at a time through the chromatic scale.

C shouldn't work, but it's in the melody, so it's in. C# will clash with the C, I think, but it might work for solos. D# won't work because it will make it a minmaj. E might work. F changes the chord to Bm7b5, so it's out. G might work. Ab is probably going to clash with the A. Bb would make 3 half steps in a row. So I end up with B D F# A C E G. That's the notes of a G major scale, which makes the chordscale B phrygian, if you want to think that way.

Or, if you accept C# instead of C, you're in the key of Bminor and it's B natural minor.

Yet another way is to figure that you're in Fmajor and adjust for the non-diatonic notes in the chords. So,when you get to Bm7, you raise the Bb and F each by a half step, which is another road to B phrygian.

If this kind of thing is helpful, that's great. I think another approach would be to strum the chords (use a looper maybe) and try all the notes to find the notes that sound good to you. Not counting the chord tones there are 8 to try and several are clearly losers if the goal is a vanilla chorus. Of course, with a good line, the "losers" may win big.

[Christian Miller]

some thoughts

[pingu]

thanks all and particularly
CM for your video ….

I will have a proper go through it
later (I’ve got her indoors blasting
Blur on the telly at the moment)

thanks man
you play great

[AllanAllen]

Play A over Bb - Bbmaj7#9 baby haha

Yeah iReal doesn’t give the melody. The idea of melody being important to the songs harmony is clearly dying off. At least the real book had melodies in it. Otoh a lead sheet is but a Google search away.

And yes I’ve used that very chart on gigs, I admit it. I just forget to learn that tune (which gets called a lot). And every time I’d play a bop II V there, which works but doesn’t really relate to the song.

But now I’ve taken a glance at it, there’s a bit more to it….

Well my point was to follow the chart the rest of the band is going to use. It no longer matters what the composer did, unless it’s your group or you hand out a sheet, iReal is the standard.

[pingu]

1278653[/URL]]thanks all and particularly
CM for your video ….

I will have a proper go through it
later (I’ve got her indoors blasting
Blur on the telly at the moment)

thanks man
you play great

what do you think of playing
Dmaj stuff over the Bmin in bar 3 ?

so over bars 1&2 play D min stuff
over bars 3(&4) play D maj stuff

i have a simpler mind that you Christian

i think i like it , but i might be getting
snow blind from doing it too much !

[Christian Miller]

what do you think of playing
Dmaj stuff over the Bmin in bar 3 ?

so over bars 1&2 play D min stuff
over bars 3(&4) play D maj stuff

i have a simpler mind that you Christian

i think i like it , but i might be getting
snow blind from doing it too much !

I like the idea to play things from D because there is a D in all those chords and really strongly in melody

Fmaj7 - 6
Bm7 - b3
E7 - b7
Bb - 3

So yeah, let me try it.

OK - so my suggestion would be try

F6 - Dm7
Bm7 - Dmaj7 or…. D7 (cos of the C)
E7 - Dm7b5
Bbmaj7 - Dm

sounds smooth

[Christian Miller]

Well my point was to follow the chart the rest of the band is going to use. It no longer matters what the composer did, unless it’s your group or you hand out a sheet, iReal is the standard.

All the suggestions I make work great on the the iReal changes. And it’s fine for reading on a gig, done it meself. But some changes in iReal are quite bad.

As far as learning repertoire goes.. that’s another thread.

[rpjazzguitar]

what do you think of playing
Dmaj stuff over the Bmin in bar 3 ?

so over bars 1&2 play D min stuff
over bars 3(&4) play D maj stuff

i have a simpler mind that you Christian

i think i like it , but i might be getting
snow blind from doing it too much !

Dmajor. Worth a try. Might as well get a backing track and try it. If you like it, it works.

[AllanAllen]

All the suggestions I make work great on the the iReal changes. And it’s fine for reading on a gig, done it meself. But some changes in iReal are quite bad.

As far as learning repertoire goes.. that’s another thread.

Yeah, your video sounded good. I'm afraid I'm in the too smart for my own playing camp now and both my playing and theory knowledge aren't that great...

5 minutes a day though... I can keep that up.

[A. Kingstone]

Perhaps it needs vulnerability.

Second gig with Cecilia Monte from Argentina. (I can tell by that clanger on the first change.)

My ham hands at work.

Later in the summer, less tentative.



Stream Cecilia Monte Samba De Verao Chalker's Toronto by AJK | Listen online for free on SoundCloud

[PMB]

Despite its different harmonic rhythm, this tune has always reminded me of the standard, I Remember You. They commonly share the same key (Ginger Baker once introduced the older tune at a gig as "I Remember F* in' You") and although the note D binds the initial changes together as Christian has observed, E is more prominent in the melody of both tunes. As an accompanist, I'd lean towards playing Bm11 without the 5th in the 3rd bar - for instance, 7x775x - to leave things a bit more open for the soloist.

[Bop Head]

Why not listen to the guy who wrote it (and it is not Jobim as iReal is saying)?

EDIT: Who obviously played a role in Miami Vice as well LOL:

Most transcriptions of the changes probably relate to the most famous version:

[Christian Miller]

Perhaps it needs vulnerability.

Second gig with Cecilia Monte from Argentina. (I can tell by that clanger on the first change.)

My ham hands at work.

Later in the summer, less tentative.
Stream Cecilia Monte -Samba De Verao - Chalker's Toronto by AJK | Listen online for free on SoundCloud

well that was way cooler and more sultry than any of the versions I’ve ever played. It benefits from being played slow

[pingu]

I've just found something interesting ....

if I play F Lydian ideas over the first 2 bars (not Ionian)

It sets my ears up to hear bars 3&4a
As a conventional 2 5 move
a LOT more smoothly ....

Anyone know why that might be ?

[A. Kingstone]

well that was way cooler and more sultry than any of the versions I’ve ever played. It benefits from being played slow

Thanks man. I compensated by playing O Pato too fast.

[pingu]

this is So Nice ….

https://youtu.be/0OSHbfQxeyU

[ragman1]

pingu -

I hope you'll listen to this, and not just the clip.

Don't fall into the amateur trap. If you come to a part of a tune you find incomprehensible (!) don't run round like a crazy person, LAY BACK. That's what the professionals do. They know it's a bit strange so they back off. They don't give it much importance. Then they can ease into the rest of the tune which, in this case, is far more important. No one cares.

If you don't believe me, listen to these two transcriptions. See what happens over the Bm7 - E7b9. They play minimally, just a few notes, nothing fancy. Here we go.

If you also listen to other versions you can hear even experienced players hesitate. Rather than get clever they just get round it and carry on. It's a fact. So you don't need to analyse those two bars and get caught up in mindless theory. That's the wrong way to do it.

Imagine you're on the bandstand or in a studio. The light goes on and you've got to play it. There's no stopping, no going back, no saying 'Sorry, I wasn't ready'!

I just sat down a few moments ago and did this off the cuff. No analysis. Here are 4 clips. All I did was play a few notes that gave the right flavour, that's all. I'm not showing off, I'm just trying to make a point.

That's all you have to do. In any case, the rest of it needs far more attention, doesn't it? Don't get hung up on two little bars, you have the whole song to play.

[pingu]

yes I listened to all the clips Ragman

I appreciate your trying to help ….

Oscar gets around OK !

[ragman1]

I wasn't 'trying to help', I was helping. If anybody's listening.

Oscar was just showing off.

[starjasmine]

I've just found something interesting ....

if I play F Lydian ideas over the first 2 bars (not Ionian)

It sets my ears up to hear bars 3&4a
As a conventional 2 5 move
a LOT more smoothly ....

Anyone know why that might be ?

The short version: F Lydian has the B natural that is common to both chords. F Ionian does not have that note.

More detail: Fma7#11 and BØ7 both occur naturally (no alterations) in F Lydian and F natural is a common tone to both chords. BØ7 is also the iiØ7 in A harmonic minor, which contains the G# in E7b9; again F is a common tone in both chords. So we can treat the B- E7 as a temporary key center of A-. Instead of resolving to A-, though, the Bb is a tritone sub of E7 and it's another pivot chord that puts us in a new temporary key of Bb, which happens to be the IV of our original F tonic.

[pingu]

1278952[/URL]]The short version: F Lydian has the B natural that is common to both chords. F Ionian does not have that note.

More detail: Fma7#11 and BØ7 both occur naturally (no alterations) in F Lydian and F natural is a common tone to both chords. BØ7 is also the iiØ7 in A harmonic minor, which contains the G# in E7b9; again F is a common tone in both chords. So we can treat the B- E7 as a temporary key center of A-. Instead of resolving to A-, though, the Bb is a tritone sub of E7 and it's another pivot chord that puts us in a new temporary key of Bb, which happens to be the IV of our original F tonic.

nice ….

yes that helps !

thanks

ps sorry about the BBC thing ,
I worked there for 35 years
i was ‘triggered’ i guess