The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    I decided to go back to square one and just go over Giant Steps for the general work. I call it training runs on rides. I don't play the tune that much and never had to on a gig as such but I certainly have played it over the years. Wondered about how others practice on this tune. In some ways I hear the progression well enough that I don't want to think but play. However that is dangerous with all the fast changes and other than running arps and making connection I don't have any other ideas. For whatever reason I find the jumps is key centers to not be something my brain and hands are used to doing. The G to Bb7 just throws my brain I have to concentrate and keep it right in front. I guess there is a pentatonic scale to work with but frankly I don't think in pentatonic scales that often probably should go where I don't think right?

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  3. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by deacon Mark
    I guess there is a pentatonic scale to work with but frankly I don't think in pentatonic scales that often probably should go where I don't think right?
    Right.

  4. #3

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    I do it several times a week. 26:2 also.

  5. #4

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    It's just in the category of tunes that you have to practice for months to get under your fingers.

    You can practice the arpeggios and the patterns Coltrane plays (1235 from the root, from the 5th etc..), and after a while the sections of the tune start flowing.

  6. #5

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    Giant Steps can be practiced all your life.The minor pentatonic trick is good for GS.

  7. #6

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    I found it useful to go through slowly and work out some ‘composed’ lines, especially paying attention at the end of each phrase to start the next one on the nearest chord tone, after a while this helped me get the lines to connect and flow much better.

  8. #7

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    I still don't get why people use GS as a practice vehicle. Practice for what? I mean, how many songs have those kinds of key changes? There are dozens of tunes with far more common progressions / changes of tonal centre that I'd rather shed the hell out of. Besides, who even likes GS? Coltrane never played it again after he recorded it. Just think about that, he always played tunes he liked live, so we have to assume that even he didn't like GS that much!

    Am I the only one that thinks that this historical and ongoing reverence for GS is, well, BS?

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    how many songs have those kinds of key changes?
    Have you met the bridge of Have You Met Miss Jones?

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet

    Am I the only one that thinks that this historical and ongoing reverence for GS is, well, BS?
    Yes.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    I still don't get why people use GS as a practice vehicle. Practice for what? I mean, how many songs have those kinds of key changes? There are dozens of tunes with far more common progressions / changes of tonal centre that I'd rather shed the hell out of. Besides, who even likes GS? Coltrane never played it again after he recorded it. Just think about that, he always played tunes he liked live, so we have to assume that even he didn't like GS that much!

    Am I the only one that thinks that this historical and ongoing reverence for GS is, well, BS?
    GS is a gateway tune to harmonic superimposing over standard changes. The best example that come to mind is the song “26:2” based on Confirmation changes. This connection is valuable for opening the pathways to hear the GS movements applied to any tune. Do we have to like it? Well, recall the first time you tasted beer or cigars?

  12. #11

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    I practice it fairly regularly. The goal is to be able to play it in 12 keys without looking at, or thinking about, the names of the chords. To just hear the sound and have my fingers find the notes on their own.

    There are various shortcut ideas that will get you through the tune. If this thread goes in that direction I'll post my favorites.

  13. #12

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    Giant steps, Countdown, etc. gave birth to "Coltrane changes", which nowadays is pretty much a standard harmonic substitution vehicle people practice over II-V-Is.

    For example, one can play Countdown changes over Tune Up.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Have you met the bridge of Have You Met Miss Jones?
    Yeah, but can you name a hundred other tunes with those changes? Or are some of us still trying to force Coltrane changes over everything? It was a cool sound in the 60's, but instead of being just another experimental diversion (anyone remember Harmolodics?), it became a core staple for many players, and continues to be. I get how it attracts the super nerds among us and we all know they said the same about Bird with his new fangled "Bebop" in the 40's, but Charlie Parker could still play a killer Blues! When did that stop being important?

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Yeah, but can you name a hundred other tunes with those changes? Or are some of us still trying to force Coltrane changes over everything? It was a cool sound in the 60's, but instead of being just another experimental diversion (anyone remember Harmolodics?), it became a core staple for many players, and continues to be. I get how it attracts the super nerds among us and we all know they said the same about Bird with his new fangled "Bebop" in the 40's, but Charlie Parker could still play a killer Blues! When did that stop being important?
    GS is a kind of challenge for jazz musicians and Coltrane was a jazz genius.I've never played a GS at concert but I'm practicing or thinking about it.
    Yes, for my own pleasure.

  16. #15

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    Giant Steps being that thing that we all practice for that one time someone calls it on a gig so we don’t lose face haha. It’s not a great tune for listening to. I know everyone cries ‘blasphemy!’ when I say it but it’s really just an etude.

    I quite like 26-2 as a tune.

    That said I think the secret to GS is leading into the chords by heavily using the dominant, something Barry taught me years ago.

    The first chord is not the start of the chorus but the last chord of the previous chorus if that makes sense.

    The guts of it are Bb7 Eb D7 G and Bb7 Eb F#7 B which we handle with Bb7 D7 and F#7 B respectively, everything else after that is a ii V I. It’s kind of how Trane phrases it

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Yeah, but can you name a hundred other tunes with those changes? Or are some of us still trying to force Coltrane changes over everything? It was a cool sound in the 60's, but instead of being just another experimental diversion (anyone remember Harmolodics?), it became a core staple for many players, and continues to be. I get how it attracts the super nerds among us and we all know they said the same about Bird with his new fangled "Bebop" in the 40's, but Charlie Parker could still play a killer Blues! When did that stop being important?
    it’s cool, I know what you mean. To be honest I don’t play GS very often, I just see it as one of the tunes it’s worth tackling at some point, if only to get used to playing over some unusual changes. There are loads of other tunes I’d rather play.

    I was trying to think if I have ever seen any ‘name’ players play it on a gig. I have been going to jazz gigs regularly for 40 years, and during the 80s/90s I used to go to Ronnie Scotts and the Bass/Tenor Clef virtually every week, I think I saw almost every American jazz musician who came over.

    The only one I can remember who ever played it was James Moody. Actually he played it as a slow ballad each time (he said he liked the changes played slowly). Of course after a couple of choruses he would suddenly kick the tempo up to max speed just to show he could do it!

  18. #17

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  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    it’s cool, I know what you mean. To be honest I don’t play GS very often, I just see it as one of the tunes it’s worth tackling at some point, if only to get used to playing over some unusual changes. There are loads of other tunes I’d rather play.

    I was trying to think if I have ever seen any ‘name’ players play it on a gig. I have been going to jazz gigs regularly for 40 years, and during the 80s/90s I used to go to Ronnie Scotts and the Bass/Tenor Clef virtually every week, I think I saw almost every American jazz musician who came over.

    The only one I can remember who ever played it was James Moody. Actually he played it as a slow ballad each time (he said he liked the changes played slowly). Of course after a couple of choruses he would suddenly kick the tempo up to max speed just to show he could do it!
    I saw Mike Stern in the early ‘90s doing a wonderful version on stage with his trio (Lincoln Goines & Ben Perowski). They made it last 20min or so. The audience was on fire. He recorded it shortly after on his album « standards and other songs » but it didn’t catch the same energy.

    I think Metheny did it also, later on, with a more relaxed and Latin tempo.

    I hardly understand why so much hate for this track. It’s a wonderful tune if you can navigate effortless through the changes. I like to think it in a melodic way, not vertically as it becomes pointless to me.

    Franco D’Andrea, a great Italian pianist with whom I studied, used to say this tune was only a half success for him. Either it was too slow and not burning enough to compare it to Countdown, or it was too fast to express all its melodic potential. I think this is a good statement.

    Best and take care.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    I still don't get why people use GS as a practice vehicle. ...
    Am I the only one that thinks that this historical and ongoing reverence for GS is, well, BS?
    I appreciated your post for it's alternate perspective, Prince. No harm in maintaining a healthy perspective on some of these things.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    The first chord is not the start of the chorus but the last chord of the previous chorus if that makes sense.
    Thank you, I always thought I'm the only one seeing the obvious... THX again.. C.M. made my day!

  22. #21

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    Here's my idea of a shortcut to GS.

    Forget about all the iim's. Make it all Imaj7 and V7

    First two beats, play in B major.

    Then, next four beats, play in B minor (at first try the minor triad). You probably won't want to limit yourself to the notes of Bm, and you should probably give some attention to the fact that there's a C# in B Aeolian and the chord is D7, but the triad will get you through that section of the tune without obvious clams.

    Then, drop a half step to play Bb7 and resolve it to Eb in a V7-I maneuver. Then, drop a half step to D7.

    Then, same idea down a major third. Gmaj, Gmin, F#7 to Bmaj and drop a half step to Bb7.

    A fundamental aspect of this tune is V7-I then drop a half step to the "new" V7 and go to the I of the new V7. Ex: Bb7 Eb D7 G.

    Next, the tune does the same thing four times.

    It does a V7-I. Then, it drops a half step and does another V7 I.

    So, bar 8 ends with a Bb7. That's a V7 which resolves to a bar of Ebmaj7.

    Which drops a half step to D7, which becomes V7 to Gmaj7, which drops a half step to F#7 etc.

    Bar 16 breaks the pattern by going to F#7, but, for some reason that's pretty easy to hear.

    This makes the last 8 bars of the tune pretty easy, I think. The first four bars are harder, but once you've figured out what you're going to do, the second four bars will take the same approach.

    Hmm. I guess that shortcut wasn't that short.

  23. #22
    Funny all these years of playing and studying modes and the like as a young guitarist. Now all I do is try and play though the chords and work first with arps and the basic. This goes for any tune. Back in my youth I would simply buzz to the scales and figure they were the end to be atall ends. How wrong I was in that now I can hear the progression much better. Being a student of the Joe Pass school of thought he always said to know the chord form you are playing out of. To me this may very well be the best advice with this tune or any really.

    I actually like to hear how the changes move in Giant Steps when the tune is played at a reasonable tempo say below 275 bpm. In fact taking it much slower is nice and allows things to come alive other than a sprint down the backstretch trying to stay in touch. A composed solo is some sense is almost needed in that it allows some improv but for me I ran breath a bit easier.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by deacon Mark
    Funny all these years of playing and studying modes and the like as a young guitarist. ... Back in my youth I would simply buzz to the scales and figure they were the end to be atall ends. How wrong I was in that now I can hear the progression much better. .... know the chord form you are playing out of. To me this may very well be the best advice with this tune or any really. ...
    Well, you're not alone there! I'd say most of us made the same mistake! I blame the Abersold/Berklee nexus. There's hundreds of thousands of people out there that have put in countless hours over many years if not decades of investment in order to try to learn to play "Jazz." And yet, still most can't, but boy, they sure know lots of scales!
    Last edited by princeplanet; 08-02-2022 at 11:26 AM.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Well, you're not alone there! I'd say most of us made the same mistake! I blame the Abersold/Berklee nexus. There's hundreds of thousands of people out there that have put in countless hours over many years if not decades of investment in order to try to learn to play "Jazz." And yet, still most can't, but boy, they sure know lots of scales!
    I have no beef with scales - the problem is that most people have no idea to go from scales to actual music. That was kind of Barry's thing - you'd never find anyone more scale - oriented, but him and his students don't sound like they are playing scales at all. .

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Besides, who even likes GS? Coltrane never played it again after he recorded it. Just think about that, he always played tunes he liked live, so we have to assume that even he didn't like GS that much!
    As a 17-year-old obsessed with hip-hop (still am), Giant Steps was the song that made me sit up and pay attention to jazz. It's been my go-to "out for a drive" music for over 10 years. And I only started playing jazz this year!